Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Reductionist]

I've been thinking about Elon's motivation to sue:
The obvious part is starting up production sooner. But secondly, if Tesla wins, and the Fremont shutdown order is ruled illegal, would that allow Tesla or shareholders to sue Alameda for damages? Anyone with legal experience care to comment?

 

[ZachF]

I've been thinking about Elon's motivation to sue:
The obvious part is starting up production sooner. But secondly, if Tesla wins, and the Fremont shutdown order is ruled illegal, would that allow Tesla or shareholders to sue Alameda for damages? Anyone with legal experience care to comment?

Im no lawyer, but Fremont probably creates $60m worth of product every day.

 

[MaChiMiB]

I've been thinking about Elon's motivation to sue:
The obvious part is starting up production sooner. But secondly, if Tesla wins, and the Fremont shutdown order is ruled illegal, would that allow Tesla or shareholders to sue Alameda for damages? Anyone with legal experience care to comment?

Another reason might be, that it'll be way harder for the county to shut down Fremont again, if the number of cases rises only moderately. So the risk for abrupt stopping the plant is mitigated quite a lot.

 

[Reductionist]

Im no lawyer, but Fremont probably creates $60m worth of product every day.

[SPECULATION] I don't think they would be able to sue for lost revenue, but if they were to sue for lost gross profits, it could become very expensive for Alameda.

 

[Tslynk67]

Interesting how now is the first anyone has heard of May 18.

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard’.”

 

[Prunesquallor]

I've been thinking about Elon's motivation to sue:
The obvious part is starting up production sooner. But secondly, if Tesla wins, and the Fremont shutdown order is ruled illegal, would that allow Tesla or shareholders to sue Alameda for damages? Anyone with legal experience care to comment?

[SPECULATION] I don't think they would be able to sue for lost revenue, but if they were to sue for lost gross profits, it could become very expensive for Alameda.

Here's what is asked for (money-wise) in the suit:

Award reasonable attorneys’ fees and costs pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1988.

Award such other relief available under the law that may be considered appropriate under the circumstances, including other fees and costs of this action to the extent allowed by the law.

I leave it to lawyers to interpret.

 

[Prunesquallor]

Elon Musk Lashes Out at Officials Keeping Tesla Plant Closed Over Virus
...
“He could have spent time enjoying his new baby and given me and my staff a couple more days and his plant would have been open on May 18,” Mr. Haggerty said.
...

Yes, let's be condescending. Good look.

 

[bobinfla]

Polls show people overwhelmingly support lockdown - 75% vs 10%.

Majority of Americans support another two weeks of lockdown: poll

The poll, conducted April 28-29 among 1,099 respondents, found 50 percent strongly support at least another two weeks of social distancing measures, with another 25 percent saying they supported them. Six percent said they opposed continuing the measures, compared to 4 percent who were strongly opposed. A larger portion—14 percent—said they had no opinion.​

Very misleading to make it sound like people support extending the lockdown now. Your post really should have said that a poll from 2 weeks ago supported 2 more weeks of lockdown, which would be ending now. Who know what they think today.

 

[Cattledog]

Robert Reich is a good guy. Nobody bats a thousand.

I'm not sure he ever bats. It's a lot easier being the guy in the press box who criticizes everyone else's performance.

 

[Reductionist]

Here's what is asked for (money-wise) in the suit:

Award reasonable attorneys’ fees and costs pursuant to 42 U.S.C. § 1988.

Award such other relief available under the law that may be considered appropriate under the circumstances, including other fees and costs of this action to the extent allowed by the law.

I leave it to lawyers to interpret.

As I read this, it only asks the court to order to pay Tesla's legal expenses associated with this lawsuit. I was thinking along the lines of this suit laying the groundwork for a future lawsuit, where they will attempt to recover damages.

 

[MartinAustin]

[SPECULATION] I don't think they would be able to sue for lost revenue, but if they were to sue for lost gross profits, it could become very expensive for Alameda.

I like the idea, but since Tesla doesn't give dividends, there's no way for shareholders to get to those profits. All they can do is sell their stock. Which, if you look at the graph, is nothing but upwards since March 18th - a fairly normal stock graph for entire market, based on the COVID-19 crash - and punctuated by short-term falls that were caused in part by Elon tweeting. Pretty hard to argue in a court that Alameda County caused some sort of problem with TSLA. I don't see a shareholder lawsuit ending in anything productive.

 

[X Fan]

I totally disagree with that and a short conversation my wife had today with a right-wing Christian acquaintance that she interacts with on an almost daily basis will illustrate what I'm talking about. This woman is no Tesla fan but my wife told me while they were doing a chore together and talking about CV, the lockdown, etc. and without the subject of Tesla being raised she piped up and said (something like) "I think I like that Elon Musk, he seems like no-nonsense kind of guy". My wife couldn't figure this comment out because this woman has shown a certain amount of disdain for "liberal" things like Californians, environmental regulations and liberal government policies and Musk and Tesla were not even part of the conversation.

Tonight, I was filling her in on some of these recent Musk activities and she lit up and said "now it makes sense" and proceeded to tell me the above story. Musk is gaining standing in the eyes of millions of Americans who previously had a dim view of him as a California liberal living off government handouts.

Standing up to "overbearing" government policies that are causing economic hardship for thousands of blue-collar workers has excellent optics in the eyes of millions of Americans. People are getting sick and tired of having everything dictated to them by inept government agencies. By standing up to a government agency like the Alameda County Health Department Musk is becoming a hero to an entirely new class of fan.

Great post!

Another anecdote; WSJ article re: Musk’s tweet had tremendous backing in the comments section versus the usual attacks.

 

[Unpilot]

It would be nice if tesla wins this battle...but honestly opening on the 18th is not a disaster. Don't forget all those other car factories that open early to make fossil fuel cars are making cars they cant sell.... they would probably love the opportunity to trade places with tesla
I do think that elon could use this real threat to move operations elsewhere to persuade texas to allow selling of cars in the state, which would be a nice bonus ahead of the cybertruck.

Ultimately I don't think the SP will do much if they re-open on monday, or the 18th. Its already factored in, and productivity will be l;ow for a few weeks anyway until the lockdown is totally over and people can operate normally anyway.

8 days is a tiny percentage of this years production, and getting smaller every day as GF3 ramps up.

I think the 18th only became a "hard" date after EM decided to play hard ball.
Before was a bunch of wait and see games by the county.
As EM watched the supply chain and his workers face no clear plan of attack he decided to force the issue.
And he has.

 

[CaliBear1]

But hey, at least this political hack is "somewhat" sympathetic to Tesla.

Yes, let's be condescending. Good look.

 

[Stretch2727]

Let's face it Californians, Fremont has really no more room to grow so future projects were going to have to go elsewhere. I don't see the plant closing up anytime soon and losing that production capability. Covid has been bad enough.

For Tesla it will be easier and faster to move being a growth and innovation company. There are lots of new investments in both capacity and innovation that can leveraged for the move. They are now seeing the cost benefits of an optimized layout in China. The labor savings alone may justify the investment in a new optimized plant.

The Model 3 at some point will be improved with all the Model Y improvements. That big as a house casting machine (for Model 3) will likely not be put in California.

Yes, it will take time but I can see this happening quicker than most think given Tesla's pace of innovation and growth.

 

[Navin]

People rarely do things out of spite but if you don’t understand how personal relationships drive improved business and policy outcomes then I’m not sure I’ll be able to teach you.

Elon has had an abysmal cv-19 crisis from the perspective of company pr, employee morale and his handling of public officials. Whether this affects long term demand and efficiency is yet to be seen. One can only imagine how the tantrum on leaving California immediately is seen by the average Tesla employee.

He remains the most brilliant product designer out there. But he is becoming a complete liability as CEO. Trouble is no one could effectively do the job of ceo with him still at the company.

I’m at the point now where I’d prefer to see him step back entirely and focus on SpaceX, but on retainer for product design. Not a popular sentiment on these pages. But this is a Tesla Investor forum, not the Elon Musk fanclub. A penny for the thoughts inside the halls of Baillee Gifford right now.

How does one in your position structure a consulting agreement? Is it tied to results, how are those results objectively measured? Do you get a retainer and monthly fee? Paid extra on weekends? Just curious more than anything else. Just attack / exclusivity on Tesla or other companies?

 

[Unpilot]

Is it my imagination or does GF3 look like it is tripling in size!?

 

[Pras]

Is it my imagination or does GF3 look like it is tripling in size!?

True that. This is becoming enormous. Soon the largest tesla factory. Wonder how big giga Berlin and Texas factories will be.

 

[davecolene0606]

That's simply not fair. The state, along with almost every other official in charge of anything health related, is trying to figure this whole situation out. Pardon them if they can't give you a definitive date as to when this pandemic will end or be controlled to the point of getting back to anything resembling "normal". It's going in stages ... maybe they need to see how the first stage works out before deciding to move further? That just seems responsible to me.

The issue at hand appears to be an individual’s intractable position. Tesla is one of the few corporations to have reopened a factory during the present epidemic. It has demonstrated success in doing so and has presented this case to the temporarily appointed county health official and it appears to not be persuasive enough to this one individual. One must look at results and science. Both are dependent on good data. The county is using incomplete data resulting from and an administrative inability from our government in general to properly manage an epidemiological study to determine accurate exposure and outcomes. This has left us to use of best practices to manage our society.

Tesla has demonstrated use of successful implementation of best practices that allow production of a product that by definition promotes health by eliminating the byproducts of of the major contributor of respiratory ailments that kill many millions of people each year. We “manage” this and “accept” these with ease. The question here: Can Tesla operate its production in a manner safe to its participants? This has been demonstrated to be true from the Shanghai location. Second question: Is the more benefit to having Tesla producing than not. Answer: Yes, as each car it replaces on the road will literally reduce risk to hundreds of people in its immediate surroundings as well as contributing to the overall goal of transition to sustainable energy, meaning, energy from a non deadly (fossil fuel) source.

Tesla should be allowed to open using its proven practices and it should be closely monitored.

Fire Away!
(It’s STILL the batteries, Stupid!)

 

[feigen66]

Speaking of mean tweets: Take a look at this one. She's a politician currently serving in the California State Assembly.

"Mama. Labor leader". You would think she knew the struggle of putting food on a table.

Liberal and conservative are really two sides of the same coin. Thanks Elon for showing that.