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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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*lightbulb ON*!
Porsche is smooth bro.
They got such a massive boost by releasing a car that the battery was degrading at such high charging rates...and then waiting awhile and quietly lowering the charging speed...
Smooth chocolatey buttery pooooooo-rsche.
VW is so proud.

They gave Taycan owners the option of lowering charging speed from 270kW to 200kW.

If you care more about speed keep it at 270kW.

You care more about long term battery health then lower it to 200kW.
 
Since many of us still do not see linked tweet contents, I'm posting the text directly:

You can now buy a Tesla with Bitcoin Elon Musk 16m ago
Tesla is using only internal & open source software & operates Bitcoin nodes directly. Bitcoin paid to Tesla will be retained as Bitcoin, not converted to fiat currency.​
Anyone know what that means for taxes for the buyer? I’m not going to buy a Tesla with bitcoin but I’m curious if people who do have a lot of bitcoin will be able to buy a car without having to pay taxes on their bitcoin gains?
 
Anyone know what that means for taxes for the buyer? I’m not going to buy a Tesla with bitcoin but I’m curious if people who do have a lot of bitcoin will be able to buy a car without having to pay taxes on their bitcoin gains?
Great thinking, when would they accept TSLA as payment?
Asking for a friend...
 
Great thinking, when would they accept TSLA as payment?
Asking for a friend...
My guess is there are no tax laws on this yet as I think it was assumed of someone was to buy real goods with bitcoin the merchant would convert to USD. This may very briefly be one of those things no law exists for. I’m not saying that IS the case and I am most certainly not giving advice.
 
Well, OTA, or not, it's great that Porsche can give some updates to older cars, once against demonstrating the superiority of EV's over ICEv

AS regards the charging rate adjustment, if I read this correctly, are Porsche admitting that if you charge the car according to the advertised rate then you'll damage the battery?

The sports car maker also noted that the maximum charging speed reduction had been requested by some Porsche customers. This was explained by Robert Meier, Taycan vehicle line director, in a statement to the media on Monday. “The charging process might take 5 to 10 minutes longer, but it gives some battery saving for customers who want to take care of the battery.”
 
AS regards the charging rate adjustment, if I read this correctly, are Porsche admitting that if you charge the car according to the advertised rate then you'll damage the battery?

Every BEV battery pack will degrade faster at max charging rate than 80% of max charging rate.

 
Anyone know what that means for taxes for the buyer? I’m not going to buy a Tesla with bitcoin but I’m curious if people who do have a lot of bitcoin will be able to buy a car without having to pay taxes on their bitcoin gains?
In at least some U.S. states, you have to pay sales tax on the vehicle at time you register it. The DMV will want USD though, not bitcoin. It'll be trivial for them to find the equivalent taxable amount in USD from the Tesla website for whatever product was purchased with bitcoin.

Tesla is smart to keep the payment in bitcoin. It's a way to build their inflation hedge, but still leaves the money in a highly liquid form (trans-border ready).
 
I’m one of the most bullish TMCers when it comes to Bitcoin but this move from Elon is causing anxiety.

1.) BTC has the potential to plummet down to 25K. It would start to create losses on vehicle sales. I don’t think Tesla sells enough cars with BTC to matter but the bears will assume all 800k cars delivered this year was all in BTC.

2.) State governments will want their pound of flesh. Is the tax and registration going to be paid in fiat?
 
Every BEV battery pack will degrade faster at max charging rate than 80% of max charging rate.

This was a thing years ago, article is from 2017, is it still necessary? And AFIAK it's more to do with the frequency of charging rather than the rate itself, no? Also charging to 100% was more of an issue?

I've not seen a Supercharged-capped car for a long time now, you used to see them pop up for sale, but to any more. I suspect its no longer an issue and Tesla's battery management software looks after it.

Come to think of it, didn't get the 100% battery warning for a long time either, not that we've been able to go anywhere the last year.
 
@avoigt my 2020 data for TSLA has 36.37 GWh made up of 34.40 GWh mobile and 1.97 GWh stationary. That represents 30.4% of global BEV+PHEV cell consumption by GWh. (the HEV consumption is trivial, about 3% so no longer material). That is up from 26.3 GWh in mobility for TSLA in 2019 which was then 31.6% market share by GWh. I have posted details of methodologies etc here in the past, and my numbers compare well with some industry data sources. Let me know if you need more info.

As investors, this is exactly the kind of data we should be obsessing over (more so than quarterly car delivery numbers and a bunch of other lesser things). It's all about the batteries (the cost to produce and the production capacity, including supply chains). Also important, the gross margins on all Tesla products - more so the trends than the absolute numbers. Because this informs how much pricing leeway Tesla has on various products. I mention this because there is the tendency to get sidetracked by car industry stuff. As investors it's important to stay focused on core issues that have the potential to sidetrack the business. In the old auto business, a business that was demand limited, it was all about features, styling, advertising, power and cost. Now it's about the batteries, volume and cost to produce. The rest will fall into place.

For years Tesla investors have been told they need to be concerned about "the coming onslaught of new EV's to the market". At some point this will become a factor and that point is still likely a long ways in the future. But when EV competition starts to become a significant factor, it will probably exhibit itself, not as a lack of demand, but as a pressure on the amount of gross margin a Tesla product can command. My expectation is that Tesla will continue to excel at driving production costs down so this won't be a factor. But that's why we should pay attention to it, so we are well appraised of Tesla's exact position in the market. Contrary to common wisdom, delivery numbers don't tell us that. If Tesla continues to excel at driving costs down and efficiency up, better than the competition, they will own the automotive market. Sure, there will be other players, that's fine, Tesla doesn't want more than, say, around 50% of the market. And 30% would be awesome! So would 20%. The point is, it looks like all Tesla needs to do to ensure dominance is to continue on the path they have forged. Which means it all comes down to management keeping the corporate culture intact as they grow.

Looking at delivery numbers is backward looking compared to looking at gross margin trends on those delivery numbers. For the purposes of long-term investing, the primary importance of delivery numbers should be to better interpret gross margins, ie, if production is hampered by one time events, it should impact gross margins and that needs to backed out to understand the larger, longer-term trends of gross margins that are happening behind the scene. There is likely a "golden period" coming within the next 3 to 6 years in which gross margins peak. This will likely be somewhere on the steepest portion of the EV adoption S-curve, I'm guessing closer to the bottom/middle than the top/middle. Any ideas on this?

In summation, try to keep a clear view of trends that actually matter in the long run and avoid going down the rabbit hole of analyzing or worrying about a multitude of details that don't require analyzing or worrying about. It's the big trends that matter, not the individual details.
 
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By design if more people use Bitcoin to buy stuff it will become stable (more liquidity). If only few use it to buy then it hardly matters to Tesla.

Also sales tax to state can been paid via $ value of when Bitcoin was paid.

the issue is how will tesla report its sale on income statement, and how will fluctuation impact the income.

best solution would be if Tesla forces some suppliers to accept Bitcoin. Creating a true loop.
 
Anyone know what that means for taxes for the buyer? I’m not going to buy a Tesla with bitcoin but I’m curious if people who do have a lot of bitcoin will be able to buy a car without having to pay taxes on their bitcoin gains?
Common sense says the IRS will require you to pay taxes on the bitcoin gains calculated based upon the Bitcoin exchange rate offered by the merchant. It cannot be any other way. Could someone ignore that and perhaps slip through the cracks? Of course! But it would be dumb to try, just like any other blatant tax cheating.
 
Common sense says the IRS will require you to pay taxes on the bitcoin gains calculated based upon the Bitcoin exchange rate offered by the merchant. It cannot be any other way. Could someone ignore that and perhaps slip through the cracks? Of course! But it would be dumb to try, just like any other blatant tax cheating.
If you buy euros and then buy and car in Europe is it tax cheating? I 100% have no knowledge here but it strikes me as a grey area legally speaking. I personally avoid legal grey areas because of a discomfort with ambiguity but it’s worth thinking about.
 
Well, OTA, or not, it's great that Porsche can give some updates to older cars, once against demonstrating the superiority of EV's over ICEv

AS regards the charging rate adjustment, if I read this correctly, are Porsche admitting that if you charge the car according to the advertised rate then you'll damage the battery?

The sports car maker also noted that the maximum charging speed reduction had been requested by some Porsche customers. This was explained by Robert Meier, Taycan vehicle line director, in a statement to the media on Monday. “The charging process might take 5 to 10 minutes longer, but it gives some battery saving for customers who want to take care of the battery.”

Yes, that's what they are saying. But the funny part is the way they try to position this change as customer driven. Without knowing more than what's presented on the surface, I would guess this is driven more by an internal analysis by Porsche engineers that determined they may have significant warranty expense if they don't implement this change. And to minimize the ruffling of customer feathers, they will present it as a service they are providing at the request of their customers.

Pretty transparent, in my opinion.
 
If you buy euros and then buy and car in Europe is it tax cheating? I 100% have no knowledge here but it strikes me as a grey area legally speaking. I personally avoid legal grey areas because of a discomfort with ambiguity but it’s worth thinking about.

I see your point and I don't know the specific answer except that gains from foreign currency speculation are taxable. So it probably depends upon whether the gains were significant enough to account for. Just a guess.
 
I’m one of the most bullish TMCers when it comes to Bitcoin but this move from Elon is causing anxiety.

1.) BTC has the potential to plummet down to 25K. It would start to create losses on vehicle sales. I don’t think Tesla sells enough cars with BTC to matter but the bears will assume all 800k cars delivered this year was all in BTC.

2.) State governments will want their pound of flesh. Is the tax and registration going to be paid in fiat?
Pre-market likes it:

TSLA Mar. 24, 4:51 a.m. EDT​
Pre-market 672.00 +9.84 (1.49%)

Bitcoin up about $2,400 now since 'the tweet'.

Thank the SEC gonna sue? :p

Cheers!