Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[2daMoon]

It's an interesting situation though. I think most places has some kind of tax on electricity???. Where I live there is about five different taxes. Including VAT on the other taxes. Yeah, really.

So, whether it's anywhere near what you pay in taxes on gas you are probably paying some on the electricity for the car.

I wonder if anyone has ever done the math on this. How much it translates to per mile driven. I guess it would be very different in different countries/states depending on the local taxation on both gas and electricity.

Of course in most cases the tax collector won't know that it's for an EV and not your general use so it won't end up in the right coffer, if it even is with gas, which is unclear in many jurisdictions..

So now you are paying both the EV fee and this electricity tax.

Of course then there are those with solar who are not paying any or very little electricity tax because of that.

It'll take awhile for anyone to figure out how this can be taxed fairly. When it is that solution probably won't be implemented anyway.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in Norway when their gas tax, which is very high, goes from many billions towards zero. It'll happen there several years before anywhere else.




Not the point of my post but:

There will now be around 89 posts that says it's mostly heavy traffic that ruins the roads anyway. Well guess what. That's irrelevant. That cost ends up with consumers anyway. Anything that is shipped on the roads in some form we are all paying for it if it's taxed in higher prices on gods. If it's not taxed we are all paying by the roads being worse. So truckin' fuel taxation is kind of a none issue. At least from a financial point.

We're thinking along the same lines. See my post with the steps for an EV owner to calculate their equivalent ICE tax paid annually.

Something to consider regarding the old arguments about heavy traffic resulting in more road wear.

Well, guess what? They also use more fuel, so, pay more tax. This isn't rocket surgery. That is what made that method the most fair way to raise funds for road maintenance.

EVs change that and still contribute to wear and need to pay for maintenance. There ain't no such thing as a free road.

 

[lascavarian]

Yes. As internet people we forget that most of the world just barely hears all this crap. Most of the people I know just think he is a little whacky and builds cool stuff. That's it.

I think a lot people saw the dope smoking clip from that Rogan idiot and the breaking the window thing. That’s what attracts clicks.

SNL could be a chance to counteract that and start a new conversation.

 

[Singuy]

Agreed, the amount of Elon hate is incredible. I guess it's the new cool pop culture group-think to hate Elon. It's really sad.

Elons hate skyrocketed after Bernie decides to use Elon as the poster child anti union billionaire to demonize. This is why I can't vote for anyone blaming the entire world's problem on a class of people. This goes with both sides. This kind of mentality sure gets you vote but at the expense of humanity's progress towards unity.

 

[2daMoon]

For the vast majority of people, it is absolutely not a fair shake. My EV surcharge is much, much more than I would have paid in gas tax. Most states are unwilling to raise gas taxes more, and it is politically impossible to do what should have been done decades ago and charge the large semi trucks which actually destroy roads they drive on their fair share. So they are basically screwing EV drivers because it's the one thing they can politically get away with to raise revenue. The whole country is like this, which is why our infrastructure is crumbling at an alarming rate.

What are the numbers for your application?

I just did a quick tally and came up with currently paying $200/year for the ICE vehicles I own. That seems in line with what some were reporting their states charging for EVs. (this was based upon 20K miles per year, 20 MPG average between vehicles, and $0.20 tax per gallon)

 

[Skryll]

Yes. As internet people we forget that most of the world just barely hears all this crap. Most of the people I know just think he is a little whacky and builds cool stuff. That's it.

Internet people ? How many people have iPhones and get the Fakenews fed straight from Apple News app and yahoo stock market app ? I just recently deleted both and now using MarketWatch instead. Much less garbage.

 

[Prunesquallor]

A question for those of us living in the US - do these states have more oil and/or fossil car industry than the rest of the US? Or is it just a general idea of taxing anything new that isn't already?

I don’t see a correlation. If there was, Texas would be on the list. I have no particular problem paying an EV road usage tax, but it should be indexed to the miles driven (and vehicle weight) instead of a flat fee. Vehicle inspections log odo readings, so it would be easy to implement.

 

[jerry33]

Internet people ? How many people have iPhones and get the Fakenews fed straight from Apple News app and yahoo stock market app ? I just recently deleted both and now using MarketWatch instead. Much less garbage.

I've yet to have news streamed on my iPhone. Anyway, there hasn't actually been any news since news programs switched from being a public service to being revenue generators.

 

[2daMoon]

The funny thing is, it’s mostly from those on the (far) left and environmentalists. You really can’t make this stuff up

I saw a sign in a yard recently encouraging passerby to join a campaign to stop the installation of a Solar Farm in a nearby rural community. I've since come up blank trying to fathom what the objection could possibly be to fight against renewable power.

People, are a problem.

 

[jerry33]

I don’t see a correlation. If there was, Texas would be on the list. I have no particular problem paying an EV road usage tax, but it should be indexed to the miles driven (and vehicle weight) instead of a flat fee. Vehicle inspections log odo readings, so it would be easy to implement.

Texas will be on the list next year at either $100 or $200 depending on which bill gets passed. $100 is only a bit over what the average driver pays in gas tax so it's not the end of the world. $200 is punishment for EVs.

 

[MartinAustin]

The opener should be the CNBC personalities being demolished.

Well sadly for CNBC, SNL is a Comcast product, so they will have to cover it positively - during their editorial segments. Continuing the pattern already in place where CNBC gets zero revenues from Tesla during commercial breaks, but spends airtime giving publicity - good or bad - or attempting to be bad - to Tesla.

I can easily see Phil LeBeau already tweeting that Elon will appear on SNL on May 8th. It's like free advertising.

This is how Tesla makes money from Comcast. Not Tesla paying Comcast for airtime during commercial breaks.

Idea: After opening skit, cut to band on stage, voiceover says "and here's tonight's guest Elon Musk," an updated Cybertruck rolls onto the stage (i.e. a reveal) and Elon climbs out of it to do his speech

 

[UnknownSoldier]

What are the numbers for your application?

I just did a quick tally and came up with currently paying $200/year for the ICE vehicles I own. That seems in line with what some were reporting their states charging for EVs. (this was based upon 20K miles per year, 20 MPG average between vehicles, and $0.20 tax per gallon)

My state charged me uh $250 but damn those are some wild assumptions. 20K a year with 20 MPG average mileage? Do you drive a Ford F-150 across the country 5 times a year? The average American drives around 14K miles a year (actually way less in 2020 because of some virus) and the average MPG for a car in America is 25 MPG.

 

[jerry33]

My state charged me uh $250 but damn those are some wild assumptions. 20K a year with 20 MPG average mileage? Do you drive a Ford F-150 across the country 5 times a year? The average American drives around 14K miles a year and the average MPG for a car in America is 25 MPG.

Isn't the average MPG based on the EPA numbers? If so, then 20 MPG is closer. And 20K a year isn't particularly high, although it's higher than "average" because there are many cars that are weekend driving only or very short commutes.

 

[CHGolferJim]

Agreed, the amount of Elon hate is incredible. I guess it's the new cool pop culture group-think to hate Elon. It's really sad.

The younger people I hang out with mostly think Tesla is very cool, and Elon too, it’s the older people who can’t imagine a CEO acting, dreaming and delivering like Elon that like him less and can’t open their minds. I’ve never met anyone who hates Elon, and somehow my Twitter feed doesn’t surface such knuckleheads. Hope I haven’t jinxed it.

 

[ByeByeJohnny]

Something to consider regarding the old arguments about heavy traffic resulting in more road wear.

Well, guess what? They also use more fuel, so, pay more tax. This isn't rocket surgery. That is what made that method the most fair way to raise funds for road maintenance.

Haha, yeah I actually wrote almost exactly that and then deleted it. Despite it being correct.

Why? Because if you have to many ideas/opinion/examples/arguments in a post people will feel that they disagree, or at least don't agree, even if that's only with one or two things out of many. I see so many posts that are arguing with a particular point of something someone wrote that really wasn't the important part of the message. Totally missing, or at least not acknowledging, that they mostly agree with what's said.

Nevermind giving those that actually disagree or troll, more to chose from and easier to find, something less important to argue about while ignoring the message.

 

[2daMoon]

My state charged me uh $250 but damn those are some wild assumptions. 20K a year with 20 MPG average mileage? Do you drive a Ford F-150 across the country 5 times a year? The average American drives around 14K miles a year (actually way less in 2020 because of some virus) and the average MPG for a car in America is 25 MPG.

Vehicles are a Ford Focus (30 MPG) and a Ford T-150 Transit camper conversion (14 MPG), and yes, a lot of miles on both each year. I likely under counted annual average miles in the quick tally I did. Vacation trips (during COVID) were probably 5-6K of that last year, in the van.

 

[Prunesquallor]

Texas will be on the list next year at either $100 or $200 depending on which bill gets passed. $100 is only a bit over what the average driver pays in gas tax so it's not the end of the world. $200 is punishment for EVs.

Didn’t know that. Both those numbers penalize me more than they should.

 

[FireMedic]

 

[mekberg]

View attachment 656689

Will Tesla release an ASIC tied to Powerwall to use excess electricity rather than selling back to the grid for a paltry rate?

 

[Knightshade]

Diesel semis mess up that equation far more than we do. I'd also point out that there aren't special buckets of road money. They add more or less. More EV revenue means they will just put less money into that bucket. Same net result.

There's absolutely special buckets of road money.

For example

https://www.ncdot.gov/about-us/how-we-operate/finance-budget/nc-first/Documents/nc-first-brief-edition-1.pdf

In NC each dollar collected in gasoline taxes goes directly to one of two different highway funds (the split between them also set by law) and that money can ONLY be used for that purpose.

For the vast majority of people, it is absolutely not a fair shake

For the vast majority the EV tax is cheaper.

Someone posted the state by state list of EV charges earlier, in virtually every case it's quite low compared to the gas tax for an average # of miles in an average ICE vehicle.


To give an example again from my state- it's $130 for an EV.

The gasoline tax is 36.1 cents per gallon. The average ICE vehicle in the US fleet gets ~25 mpg, and drives (outside of covid) about 13,500 miles per year.

That's 540 gallons of gas, which is $194.94.

So about 1/3rd more the average driver pays in fuel taxes than I pay for the EV registration tax.

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EDIT- actually it's even worse for the ICE driver.... there's also the 18.3 cent FEDERAL gas tax, there's no equivalent for EVs there... so at 540 gallons of gas that's another almost $100 a year in FEDERAL gas tax the EV driver doesn't have to pay.

Meaning the gas car on average is paying almost $300 yr, vs the EV driver paying the $130 tax.
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Obviously there'll be exceptions (esp. for low-miles drivers in a Prius or something since the EV tax is flat and the gas tax is effectively per mile based on MPG) but for most? The EV tax is lower currently.

As more EVs get on the road that's likely to have to change though because the roads still need funding.

 

[2daMoon]

And now for something completely different ...

I know it is the weekend and we aren't supposed to talk about things like stonks when there are SNL, taxes, and more interesting topics to cover. As a break from that weekend norm, I offer a chart.

Would the circled area on the right be another one of those Bollinger pinch points the market soothsayers go on about as indicating a potential break upward? (also note the uncircled pinch point between the last two where it broke down, the other possibility)

The Yellow is the long running trend line from the late 2019 breakout. The Red line is 150 MA.