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FT Interviewer: "Will Tesla ever build a car smaller than the Model 3?" | Financial Times LIVE (2022-05-10)

Elon: "There is some probability that Tesla will do a smaller car than the Model 3. I won't say more than that."​


Overall, Master Plan Part Deux remains intact: Semi from Texas in 2023, then Robotaxi from Shanghai in 2024. A smaller "hot hatch" is simply necessary for practical use in the tighter confines of old European cities, and in many places in Asia. Smaller does NOT mean less profitable for Tesla (think VOLUME manufacturing). The combination of a LFP structual battery and single-piece gigacasting will make "Model 2" (the compact car) more economical to build, while Tesla FSD and Infotainment amenities will make it more attractive than the competetion. Its the Road to PROFIT (ie: when they're ready, they will build it).

Paging @jbcarioca @StealthP3D

I agree that there is a market for a model-2 small Tesla / hatch.

But until Tesla can shorten the waiting lists for its existing models, there's zero reason to do anything more than design work on it.
 
Tesla ships 4,767 cars from Shanghai plant; first export since reopen


Sounds like at least 2 more ships are also planned to depart Shanghai this quarter:


Cheers to the Longs!
 
FT Interviewer: "Will Tesla ever build a car smaller than the Model 3?" | Financial Times LIVE (2022-05-10)

Elon: "There is some probability that Tesla will do a smaller car than the Model 3. I won't say more than that."​


Overall, Master Plan Part Deux remains intact: Semi from Texas in 2023, then Robotaxi from Shanghai in 2024. A smaller "hot hatch" is simply necessary for practical use in the tighter confines of old European cities, and in many places in Asia. Smaller does NOT mean less profitable for Tesla (think VOLUME manufacturing). The combination of a LFP structual battery and single-piece gigacasting will make "Model 2" (the compact car) more economical to build, while Tesla FSD and Infotainment amenities will make it more attractive than the competetion. Its the Road to PROFIT (ie: when they're ready, they will build it).

Paging @jbcarioca @StealthP3D

Little doubt, Tesla will eventually produce a smaller car but it will have to wait for Cybertruck and Semi so I'm not expecting it too quickly. Fortunately, Tesla doesn't seem to be overly eager to bring it out just for the sake of having more models before they need more models to expand the addressable market.
 
Tesla producing smaller car does not mean tesla selling that smaller car at a "smaller" price.

That smaller car will come without steering wheel and with lifetime FSD you will have to pay for.
The price of lifetime FSD wont be just $10k.
It will be closer to $30k, making that $25k smaller tesla a $55k robotaxi.

You could buy it but there will be little financial sense in doing it.
 
Little doubt, Tesla will eventually produce a smaller car but it will have to wait for Cybertruck and Semi so I'm not expecting it too quickly. Fortunately, Tesla doesn't seem to be overly eager to bring it out just for the sake of having more models before they need more models to expand the addressable market.

Yeah, they need the battery supply ready to support any new product. No point in adding complexity w/o increasing total deliveries. So, whether from suppliers or by their own production, I expect a big push for U.S.-made LFP batteries in the near future.

It seems ideal that Semi will use high-nickel cathode chemistry, while Robotaxi will use LFP. The two won't compete directly for those critical resources, allowing both to ramp production simultaneously.

Cheers!
 
Tesla still need a small car for rural areas. Robotaxi doesn't make economic sense in a village of 200 people, but those 200 people will likely need a car (esp because...rural), so it makes sense at some point to offer a small model 2. Some people prefer small cars, and some European cities have super narrow roads, and super small parking spaces.
I agree we wont see it until after the cybertruck, semi and roadster.
 
We need smaller Tesla in Europe - Model 3 is still too big for many people and not practical enough... small hatch-back would use less batteries = more ICE displaced...
Tiny Euro appropriate hatchbacks are already hyperefficient. Displacing the entire luxury sedan market is more impactful.

The legacy carmakers will fill the tiny car gap real quick.
 
Tesla still need a small car for rural areas. Robotaxi doesn't make economic sense in a village of 200 people, but those 200 people will likely need a car (esp because...rural), so it makes sense at some point to offer a small model 2. Some people prefer small cars, and some European cities have super narrow roads, and super small parking spaces.
I agree we wont see it until after the cybertruck, semi and roadster.

Disagree, a small village of 200 people probably have 100-200 vehicles between them, some will be special purpose or business vehicles (perhaps half), but that still leaves 50-100 which could be replaced by Robotaxi, so a small village could easily support 5-10 Robotaxi.

Agree that some people prefer small cars and that the centers of some European and Asian town and cities are really only viable for small cars, but this shouldn't be overstated. SUVs are common, so are mid-large luxury cars, workmen use Sprinter/Transit vans as does home delivery networks .

There seems to be significant markets for VW Golf (14% shorter than Model 3) and VW Polo (20% shorter than Model 3) sized cars. Much smaller than a Polo is probably not possible while still keeping Tesla's excellent crash safety. While these sizes will be a bit cheaper to produce, because of less weight leading to smaller battery, I think that they won't be a lot cheaper than the Model 3 to buy, perhaps 7% and 15%. This is because I think they will still be premium cars, with FSD hardware, a great infotainment system, soundproofing, performance, range, etc.

By concentrating on vehicle longevity, Tesla can produce cars with a very low total cost of ownership, that is more important than sticker price IMHO, as most people buy cars with finance, cost per month is what is most important, and low cost of ownership is massively helped by low depreciation.
 
Tesla producing smaller car does not mean tesla selling that smaller car at a "smaller" price.

That smaller car will come without steering wheel and with lifetime FSD you will have to pay for.
The price of lifetime FSD wont be just $10k.
It will be closer to $30k, making that $25k smaller tesla a $55k robotaxi.

You could buy it but there will be little financial sense in doing it.
Tesla is making a dedicated Robotaxi. I think it would be a mistake to release a 25k car without a steering wheel. I know this idea was floated but I don't think Tesla will actually do that, FSD or no.
 
Tesla is making a dedicated Robotaxi. I think it would be a mistake to release a 25k car without a steering wheel. I know this idea was floated but I don't think Tesla will actually do that, FSD or no.

I agree. I think the $25K car will be a mini hatchback style consumer car with a steering wheel & pedals and all, and then the dedicated robotaxi car will have no driver controls whatsoever and won't be meant for consumer use but designed only for TaaS (Transportation As A Service). Two separate products, both very affordable and cheap to produce.
 
Disagree, a small village of 200 people probably have 100-200 vehicles between them, some will be special purpose or business vehicles (perhaps half), but that still leaves 50-100 which could be replaced by Robotaxi, so a small village could easily support 5-10 Robotaxi.

I live in such a village. What happens when more than 5 of those people want to leave for work at 9am? Its absolutely unworkable to rely on robotaxis which may or may not be available when you are not in an urban area.
There is a good reason there is no uber in small villages.

Plus the more rural the location, the harder it is for FSD. I'm not sure how much data tesla currently has on cows crossing a single track road with no road markings, or on trees blocking the road, but this stuff is 1000x more likely in remote locations than in urban California where FSD is currently at its best.

I strongly doubt we will see robotaxis in rural locations within a decade.
 
Tiny Euro appropriate hatchbacks are already hyperefficient. Displacing the entire luxury sedan market is more impactful.

The legacy carmakers will fill the tiny car gap real quick.
This.

Tesla does not have to provide cars in all segments. Especially not since the cost of owning a small city car is much higher than using a robotaxi.

It is hard to truly grasp what the world (of mobility) will look like when level 5 autonomy exists, since it's never been invented. Similarly, for people in the 70's and 80's it was very hard to imagine a world where 90% of people had internet access. Very hard but not impossible. Some visionaries - reasoning from first principles - could see the future and some of these acted on it to make it a reality.

The problem with these thought experiments is that one needs to agree that something is possible before one can truly start imagining what the future would then look like.

Ask an 1850's person about airplanes or a 1980's person about social media and they'd most likely tell you that future is "impossible". Right now I observe the same attitude regarding level 5 autonomy, even on the Autonomy section of TMC. The vast majority of people nowadays thinks level 5 is either impossible or at least a decade away.

Some people however, think level 5 is a given:
- Jim Keller: "You can train a neural network to extract the distance of any object and the shape of any surface from a video and date. It's really simple. That's a simple data problem." He believes in ten years FSD will be just a standard option that can be fitted to any car.
- George Hotz (less optimistic regarding timelines but achieving level 5 is still a given to him)
- Elon Musk
- Andrej Karpathy

And me, but I'm not as intelligent as the people in the list above so let's discard my view about the matter :).

My point is, I'm quite certain level 5 will be achieved before the year 2030. (If not way sooner, but for the sake of the thought expirement let's stick with 2030).

Robotaxis are a given at this point. Yes, some people want to have their personal vehicle but the costs that will go with this will be immense and not worth it to most.

Autonomous transport of goods (trucks, vans) will also shake up the industry.

All reasons for travel will be displaced by autonomy at some point:
- work, hobbies -> robotaxi.
- shopping -> home delivery by autonomous vehicles you can open with the app of the provider or a code. Example.
- travel -> robotaxi or renting a car. Renting will still exist but will equate to a full time robotaxi at your disposal, which will be much more expensive than just using robotaxi every day.

The elite will want their personal vehicle to keep their coat in their trunk, but this is a first world luxury problem the common man can do without. Even children seating is solvable with robotaxi: on the app you select the amount of passengers and the amount of children passengers, and a robotaxi with the right amount of booster seats shows up.

The above is of course only possible after an immense surge in robotaxis (and therefore production), so this is the long term future 10-20 years after achieving level 5 for the first time. Which could be as soon as 2023.

But it will happen. Just a matter of time. Elon wants this timeline to accelerate instead of stalling it by bringing a new smaller vehicle to market.

Robotaxi produced in 2024 will most likely be very cheap to produce and could very well be the first "single piece casting"-car body (aka the matchbox car) ever made.
Take the one casting, add some body panels, windows and an underbody consisting of battery/motors/drivetrain/wheels, and you've got yourself a car.

In the beginning level 5 will be exclusive so therefore robotaxi will be able to sell for a high price with insane margins. Or Tesla can keep them and make money by running the fleet. We'll see.

Either way, I'm HODLing as to reap the rewards.
 
Tesla ships 4,767 cars from Shanghai plant; first export since reopen

It's rare that we get a car count for a ship. This allows us to calculate the loading rate.
In the past, I estimated that Tesla loaded about 1,200 cars per day out of their San Francisco port (SFO).

The Glovis Splendor in Shanghai loaded for 3 days and 1 hour. With 4,767 cars on board, that is a loading rate of 1,567 cars per day.
That's quite impressive.
 
To those who disagree, I still want to know the economics. Explain to me what I am not seeing here. A small village, 100 people, 30 go to work in the morning rush hour with >1 hour commutes. How are these people relying on robotaxi? How is it economic for a robotaxi to be sat idling in a small village, unused 90% of the time?

I love uber, and use it a lot when on holiday. robotaxis would be even better, but I still own a car, because the nearest taxi company to me is 20 minutes drive away. Even assuming greater penetration of robotaxis than existing taxis, its still going to be somewhere other than a tiny village.
People in remote areas are NOT going to commute by robotaxi, or rely on them. They will buy EVs. It feels like a lot of people are blindly believing elon and Cathy predicting the death of personal transport, without ever having spoken to someone in a rural community.
San francisco and California are the the entire world!