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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Is anyone else who doesn't use margin considering using some?

No. Because I didn't get to where I am today by using margin (even though I've had a margin account since I first opened an online brokerage account in the mid-1990's).

Wall Street hands out margin accounts like candy because margin loans empower their shenanigans. Puppet masters like their puppets on strings, and it's even better when they get to define the length of every string and can change the terms and limits at will (their will). Are you a puppet?

Do not use margin unless you have a way to reverse the margin loan instantly, regardless of the market gyrations.
 
Are you a puppet?

Do not use margin unless you have a way to reverse the margin loan instantly, regardless of the market gyrations.
Much appreciated. You turned me from a TSLA trader to a buy and hold guy which was the best advice I ever received [even though I have way more shares now because of past trading]. I'll listen to you again.
 
Is anyone else who doesn't use margin considering using some?

The trouble with any kind of margin or leverage / options stuff, is that you really do NOT know what black swan event may happen tomorrow. We probably all agree that TSLA is a great investment and currently undervalued *all other things being equal* , but what happens if putin has a really bad day and drops a single tactical nuke in mariupol?
What happens if a solar storm flares up and takes out 10% of the worlds transformers? what happens if a literal meteor hits and takes out a medium sized city? What it bitcoin drops to zero and takes a bunch of banks down with it? What if we get covid 2022 new variant that is 20x as deadly? What if biden has a heart attack or is shot?

TSLA can crash down badly because of stuff that has *nothing to do with the company*. They can make the best darned electric cars ever made, but if there is a serious global depression lasting 10 years because of some totally unpredictable black swan event, people on margin can get wiped out.
Buy stocks, hold them. Be patient. And sleep safe at night.
 
Anything is tradeable if you want to try to trade it. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's only in the end that you know whether you did well, not the end of each trade but the end of years of trading. Buy/hold tends to work much better for almost 100% of all investors. But if you read financial MSM you will be led to believe otherwise. They always talk as if the real pro's make all their money by trading in/out of positions based on their superior knowledge of markets. But that is only true (in the aggregate) if you consider that market makers and their cohorts are the only true professionals. And the effect of all that misinformation is to help the market makers and their cohorts. Because they *are* Wall Street. They make billions by putting a tax on the retirement accounts of mom and pop Main Street. And, no, you can never become a market maker without actually joining the payroll.

Always take a big step back to look at market events such as the one we are going through. Realize that the single thing that has changed is what someone is willing to pay for a given asset right now. In the end these things always revert to the mean.

Business as we know it is not coming to an end. In fact, I believe we are in the early days of the age of technology brought about by mass connectivity (which has only been with us for barely over 2 decades) and other technological efficiencies that will grow to levels that are still unimaginable to many. Artificial Intelligence is already beginning to provide a real efficiency boost in many industries. Materials technology is growing faster than it ever has before. The price of robotics declines while speed and functionality increases. Same with computing. The net effect is more productivity with less effort. This means we are in a long-term period, a golden age for investors.

These things will continue to drive the economy and the markets forward. P/E ratios are climbing from their long-term historical norms of around p/e 12 for good reasons, one of which is better access to data. When you have more visibility into what companies and their competition is doing, when you have more confidence of exactly who each company is and what they are about, you are willing to pay more for future earnings. In the 1970's and 1980's it was not a simple or quick thing to get SEC filings. They had to be printed and mailed to you. Better dissemination of information about the companies making up the public markets make those companies worth more because people can better see exactly what they are investing in. Another reason for higher p/e's is the increasing scale and efficiencies of companies brought about by technology.

What we are seeing right now is just a short snapshot of market fear brought about by the need to periodically reset everything to prepare to move forward. Disruption brought about by companies like Tesla is actually a big reason why this is necessary! It's too bad it gets brought along for the ride but that's the way it works. Big money needs to periodically reposition themselves.

I am not a fan of alternating phases of irrational exuberance and irrational fear like this. I would prefer markets were more steady and more rational. But those in charge of MSM and Wall Street, big money and the Federal Reserve prefer it like this. This is their "tax" on the system. Even Elon Musk, arguably the wealthiest man in the world, is not part of this club - he prefers to make his money the old-fashioned way, by creating new value. Elon does not believe in the financial tax and does what he can to be free from the constant drain it imposes upon productive people. I prefer to make my money by investing in the growth of the companies supporting the markets, not the market action itself. Actual investing in good companies is hugely profitable without worrying about the market gyrations caused by fear and greed and that are always temporal in nature.

Remember this, if these gyrations were not temporal, you would not be safe from them even if you were 100% in cash. Because if these gyrations were not 100% temporal in nature, if business as we know it is coming to an end, you have a much bigger problem on your hands than the balance number assigned to your brokerage account. This is why I keep my eyes on the company and it' performance, not the day-to-day valuations of the company. The company is good and noble as it grows and expands, the markets are corrupt and greedy and very inefficient in the short-term.
"Remember this, if these gyrations were not temporal, you would not be safe from them even if you were 100% in cash. Because if these gyrations were not 100% temporal in nature, if business as we know it is coming to an end, you have a much bigger problem on your hands than the balance number assigned to your brokerage account".
Wow, well said....
 
I don't like to admit it, but I don't understand the consequences of this.

Musk is rounding up a bunch of rich people to help him buy Twitter. That way, he doesn't have to put as many (or any?) of his TSLA shares up as collateral.

The only people that would be opposed to this are the banks that stood to benefit from having his shares as collateral. I'm not sure if they would be allowed to write options on them, short, etc. while they had them or not.
 
For those making bottom calls, why now? What is different? Why not end of summer?
No-one who doesn't own a time machine can call the bottom. But the important point is you don't need to. You just need to be able to call the time when the risk reward ratio has moved massively in your favour. This is the path to riches for people who don't own a time machine, but do have spare cash, and a brain.

To put it another way, buy low sell high. There is no requirement to buy lowest sell highest
 
I don't like to admit it, but I don't understand the consequences of this.

Over the past few weeks, there's been a lot of (mostly uninformed) speculation about how low the TSLA SP would need to go to make Elon's purchase of Twitter untenable. I've seen investors and activists relish in the fact that they may be able to throw a wrench in the Twitter acquisition by shorting TSLA.

If some of the weakness we've seen in recent weeks has been due to a concerted effort to suppress the SP by those that don't want the Twitter acquisition to go through, then Elon raising private equity removes that incentive and the uncertainty around it.
 
No-one who doesn't own a time machine can call the bottom. But the important point is you don't need to. You just need to be able to call the time when the risk reward ratio has moved massively in your favour. This is the path to riches for people who don't own a time machine, but do have spare cash, and a brain.

To put it another way, buy low sell high. There is no requirement to buy lowest sell highest
I tried to get greedy today and for the first time in a couple years I sold a few hundred shares at 690 thinking we were going to have another 8% drop only to have to buy back my shares an hour later at 720. It was an instant lesson on you can't time the market. Now it's time to try and get cash to buy more shares the old fashioned way, with cash.
 
Musk is rounding up a bunch of rich people to help him buy Twitter. That way, he doesn't have to put as many (or any?) of his TSLA shares up as collateral.

The only people that would be opposed to this are the banks that stood to benefit from having his shares as collateral. I'm not sure if they would be allowed to write options on them, short, etc. while they had them or not.

Not my viewpoint (and I'm glad he's looking to ditch the loan), but this could be viewed through the bearish lens of Elon not being confident in the short-term price of TSLA.
 
Not my viewpoint (and I'm glad he's looking to ditch the loan), but this could be viewed through the bearish lens of Elon not being confident in the short-term price of TSLA.

Possibly, but I think it is more appropriate to view through the lens of "Elon hates banks and doesn't want to do business with them at all, or minimize business if he has to".
 
The trouble with any kind of margin or leverage / options stuff, is that you really do NOT know what black swan event may happen tomorrow. We probably all agree that TSLA is a great investment and currently undervalued *all other things being equal* , but what happens if putin has a really bad day and drops a single tactical nuke in mariupol?
What happens if a solar storm flares up and takes out 10% of the worlds transformers? what happens if a literal meteor hits and takes out a medium sized city? What it bitcoin drops to zero and takes a bunch of banks down with it? What if we get covid 2022 new variant that is 20x as deadly? What if biden has a heart attack or is shot?

TSLA can crash down badly because of stuff that has *nothing to do with the company*. They can make the best darned electric cars ever made, but if there is a serious global depression lasting 10 years because of some totally unpredictable black swan event, people on margin can get wiped out.
Buy stocks, hold them. Be patient. And sleep safe at night.
I sing this song a lot. Love Barenaked Ladies, must be my Canadian.

 
So Max Pain is listed as $800 for tomorrow, although the open interest chart shows anything between $780-$800 is basically just as good for the MMs, and even down to $750 the difference is pretty small (red put spike at 780 barely higher than green call spike):
1652372926041.png

So isn't MMs supposed to help push the stock above 780 (or at least above 750) by tomorrow close ?
Or max pain only works when it is below the current SP ? (MM's law of special relativity...)
 
(long well written post elided for brevity)

...assigned to your brokerage account. This is why I keep my eyes on the company and it' performance, not the day-to-day valuations of the company. The company is good and noble as it grows and expands, the markets are corrupt and greedy and very inefficient in the short-term.
Your choice of words here triggered a memory for me of the Financial Times most excellent Elon and JB interview. Elon was talking about FSD in response to a question, and he took a good bit of time to say (paraphrasing from memory here) "The 90% of people who would have died but who's lives were saved by FSD will never know it. The other 10% will sue you [well he presumably meant their families/estates will]. The easiest and safest thing due to that risk would be to not venture into these waters. But Tesla will do the right thing. If the right thing is to save people and get sued, Tesla will save people and get sued."

Tell me when any C-suite exec said something like that at any other company and wasn't immediately asked to "spend more time with their family".

This company still appears to be a horse of a different color. Let us all hope it continues that way until the mission is complete.