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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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That might leave (say) 1/10 of Y? People of that group who have the beta and were promised "autosteer on city streets" not "it'll be like a robotaxi". So maybe they can recognize 1/10 of $X? That's still $100M or more.

We saw them recognize revenue for Smart Summon though it's still in beta and still has some issues, so I don't think FSD has to be totally solved to recognize some revenue. I guess the question is whether they think the current beta meets the requirements for "autosteer on city streets" and whether 100K or 200K beta users is an adequately wide rollout.

Definitely not a given, but a possibility I would think.

The difference is that Smart Summon was available to everyone in the region without conditions/requirements, and it didn't have a condition on it that Tesla can take it away at any time, or for not paying attention.

IMO, There is zero chance of recognizing revenue for the "early limited" release participants. (There are multiple people that have had it taken away from them for getting AP strikes, how would that be accounted for if the revenue had been recognized before they strike out and have their access removed?)
 
Hmm, I don't see any real evidence those are channels, as opposed to just corrugations to strengthen the cover. Can't see a lower half to make a tube, no manifolds, etc... Additionally given that both positive and negative connections are on the cell top, there would seem to be complexity in making a thermal bond there.

So is end cooling something that you are surmising, or has it been explicitly shown/discussed at some sort of pack cutaway or presentation at an event?

I'm stating the following, to be clear:
1) end cooling was mentioned by Tesla and others, but we don't have definitive evidence - so speculation on my part and I might have mis-interpreted those channels. We need someone to do a battery teardown to clarify this.
2) 4680 cells, because of their tabless design, produce less heat than the equivalent per mass of 2170 cells, making overall cooling requirements in the pack lower (see paper I referenced above).
 
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Today I had to supercharge in Middelburg in the province of Zeeland here in The Netherlands.
Was surprised to see a tent and a ranger at the supercharger.

Now, every now and then I read complaints about the Tesla service.
Tesla personnel here thought: well, let's bring our service TO the customer:
- front latch needs replacement? When I drove up to the chargers they were already digitally checking my car.
- CCS charger upgrade? It could be done there and then.
- want a nice Tesla jacket? They brought them with them.
- some other problem? Just mention it.
They said they had mailed owners living in the province they would be there for them. No need to drive far.
Awesome service initiative, kudos.

IMG_6338.JPG
 
It's been confirmed that this is not the case. I'm confident in saying that the only active cooling in the 4680 battery pack is provided by the counter-flow cooling ribbons that run along the sides of alternate rows of cells. This ribbon provides a large contact area with the side of the cell and uses conduction as it's main thermodynamic heat exchange to the cell and then convection to the fluid passing through the ribbon. Because the cell has a continuous metal casing, this casing provides a low resistance thermal conduction pathway from the top and bottom of the cell to the cooling ribbon on the side. So while the ribbon is only along one side, the cell casing allows heat to be dissipated from a much greater surface area of the cell.

The above was all confirmed by a Tesla Cell Engineer that Jordon Giesige of the Limiting Factor spoke to at the Giga Austin rodeo event. The video below is queued to the part that discusses the 4680 battery pack cooling.


Interesting, if he's right (don't have a reason to believe he is not), then the heat still wicks downward per the Tesla engineer, due to the tabless design, but they still use ribbons to remove that heat. Possibly a safety concern as they didn't want puncture possibility in the bottom of the pack?
 
I'm stating the following, to be clear:
1) end cooling was mentioned by Tesla and others, but we don't have definitive evidence - so speculation on my part and I might have mis-interpreted those channels. We need someone to do a battery teardown to clarify this.
2) 4680 cells, because of their tabless design, produce less heat than the equivalent per mass of 2170 cells, making overall cooling requirements in the pack lower (see paper I referenced above).
Thanks, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but as I mentioned/requested earlier, I know it was surmised by folks, but do you have any references for you assertion that Tesla mentioned this?

I don't recall that, but there's a lot that they've said/shown, and I may have missed it.

Thanks.
 
I'm stating the following, to be clear:
1) end cooling was mentioned by Tesla
Do you have a reference for that? I don't recall Tesla ever mentioning end cooling. (A lot of YouTuber's, etc. mentioned it, but I think it was all made up.)

Interesting, if he's right (don't have a reason to believe he is not), then the heat still wicks downward per the Tesla engineer, due to the tabless design, but they still use ribbons to remove that heat. Possibly a safety concern as they didn't want puncture possibility in the bottom of the pack?
Yes, some of the heat will wick into the bottom of the can and wick up the sides of the cell can to the cooling tubes. (Still shortening the heat transfer path for the middle of the cell from the 2170 design somewhat.)
 
A new video of 4680 production...

Great video. Interestingly, it was posted as a recruitment video... But I didn't see any humans in this clip... What are they recruiting? Bots?
The market is about to get an overflow of unemployed bots, as Elon fires them from Twitter... ;)
 
Thanks, and I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but as I mentioned/requested earlier, I know it was surmised by folks, but do you have any references for you assertion that Tesla mentioned this?

I don't recall that, but there's a lot that they've said/shown, and I may have missed it.

Thanks.

IIRC Elon mentioned it in the battery day presentation. I've been going off the mathematics paper above that I quoted.

EDIT - if I get this contract I'm working on settled, I'll go back and re-watch the full BD presentation.
 
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I was out of town last weekend when I got a notice that my Model Y had an update waiting ... I went ahead and installed the update and when I got home ... I was in the club!!! I was thrilled to see that I got the FSD Beta.

I've been using it now for a few days and while I'm pretty comfortable using the autopilot feature on the highway, I have to say that FSD on city streets is a completely different thing and is going to take me a while to get used to. The level of trust you need to have is very high and I'm not there yet .... I've had mixed results so far, as to be expected with a beta version, but I can say that this software will get exponentially better in the next 18-24 months and this should really excite shareholders.

I'll report back at some point with a more detailed post of how it's going but so far I'm impressed ... I don't think we are anywhere near "robotaxi" level yet but the writing is on the wall. The future is here.

Cheers to the longs.

Yup. Being using NOA for years. It went from driving like a drunk teen with three hours of driving history to a feature I use twice every weekday for 45-60 miles.

Now FSD, though not at same start point is similar in the worry factor. First day I tried it, was impressed by how well it did taking me from home to a tennis match 25 minutes away. Relatively smooth, confident.

I was super jazzed when it straddled the lane as it passed a cyclist on the right. Something I do all the time.

Last several attempts have put me on high alert. I use it now when I have the energy to be super vigilant.

It makes some weird decisions and some dangerous ones.
  • Took a right hand turn, signaling and slowing down only 15 feet from the turn point. Severely pissed off driver behind.
  • As it turned at an intersection (lights green, no cross traffic), it suddenly broke off and tried to go straight.
  • Turning into our community, it moved too early to the left and if I had not taken over, would have gotten curb rash on front left wheel.
Despite this, I am confident we will progress quickly and the quirks will have enough improved decision making capability to be weeded it out.

What worries me is the probability of accidents. There will be idiots out there that won’t be paying attention. And let’s be serious, our scores our meaningless. We entered with a 95% on my Plaid and 97% on wife’s MYP. I drive my Plaid with fun in mind. Safe but aggressive. Wife drives conservatively, and I dialed down driving her car to qualify.

I want that I am wrong. This is the future. And Tesla will own a big piece of the market.

We HODLers will rejoice financially and altruistically. I hope we testers don’t derail or delay that outcome.
 
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I would be interested to know how you played this FUD in a profitable manner. Do you have to wait a few days for it to work?
I set up a buy order and wait for it to hit. With Tesla it may hit on this fud or it may be hitting on who knows what. If/when it hits, I set up a sell order for between 50 and 100 points above the buy. Rinse, repeat. I'm in no hurry, it's just a game for some lunch money. There are numerous buy orders in and numerous sell orders in. For instance, when the share price started going down I built buy ladders between $900 and $800 or there about. They all hit. The sell orders are in and now I have to wait for $850 on up to a $1000 for them to sell.

And whether or not it's profitable, well, the tax man thinks so. :/
Edit: the tax man part is a joke because I trade within a roth.
 
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Looks like both FTC and NHTSA are looking to make life harder today. NHTSA is upgrading its investigation from Prelim to Engineering analysis, and FTC wants to presumably look into the letters some congressmen have written in the past, most likely at the behest of auto dealers, etc. It all reeks of Dems wanting to show who the boss is.

Not linking to any of this crap. Interestingly my broker feed was marking the upgrade of NHTSA investigation as a strong positive. 😃
 
IIRC Elon mentioned it in the battery day presentation. I've been going off the mathematics paper above that I quoted.

EDIT - if I get this contract I'm working on settled, I'll go back and re-watch the full BD presentation.
Searching the Battery Day transcript for "cooling", "cool", "thermal", "cap", and "end" the closest I could find was:

Drew Baglino: (01:52:42)
Yeah, exactly. There are problems as you make cells larger. In fact, supercharging and thermals in general become really challenging as you make bigger cells. And this was the challenge that our team set our sights on to overcome. And we did, we came up with this tabless architecture that maybe you’ve heard about, that basically removes the thermal problem from the equation and allows us to go to the absolute lowest cost form factor and the simplest manufacturing process. And this is what we mean when we talk about tabless. It’s kind of a beautiful thing.

Elon Musk: (01:53:22)
Yeah. That’s what these t-shirts mean, but it’s very esoteric. It was like, nobody could figure it out.

Drew Baglino: (01:53:26)
Yeah, we basically took the existing foils, laser pattered them, and enabled dozens of connections into the active material through this shingled spiral you can see with simpler manufacturing, fewer parts, 50 millimeter versus 250 millimeter electrical path length, which is how we get all the thermal benefits.

Drew's comments, not Elon's, and doesn't talk about end cooling of cells in the pack.
 
He’s usually precise but less often accurate . A regular problem in forecasting is generating precision far outside the sphere of confidence. Frequently there are those who display ranges, which is better than false precision.

The master problem in forecasting is using com with wide confidence ranges, but showing on a fixed value. Every time that is repeated the expected values further lose confidence.

Long ago I was tasked to evaluate an acquisition candidate providing a five year forecast. Following the project the acquisition was made. Five years later I was strongly complimented for my stellar forecasting talents, since the bottom lines happened to be within 3% of my forecasts. I was astonished and thrilled ! Then I made a fatal mistake. I reviewed my model against actual results. Nearly all components were off by 50% or more for every year. By gigantic but fortuitous coincident, the bottom lines were right on.

Ever since then I have remained acutely aware of the ‘last significant digit’. As a result my own forecasts all consider ranges, never absolutes. Some, like @The Accountant deal with this with multiple cases, which is the optimal way for general audiences. For internal use I use ranges for each variable, then attempt to adjust others for dependencies. That is very hard to display. Securities analysts rarely seem to do any significant analysis, just compare with purported competitors.

Woth Tesla the complexity is rapidly rising and accurate data is becoming more difficult to acquire. Traditional data sources are of diminishing value. Frankly, the value of TMC is rising quickly, just as the volume of irrelevancies is growing.

Bluntly our mods are doing a stellar job trying to keep us focused on investment evaluation. They are to be applauded and,perhaps, pitied! Luckily some of our mods live in such remote areas that being our disciplinarians might serve as comic relief. I don’t know, but I thank them!
Lest anyone - @Troy or anyone else - either misunderstand or neglect that which appears under my avatar, it is NOT a suggestion or council. Rather, it is a fact, drilled into me as a precocious teenager over the dining table by the great Jay Stratton, president of MIT, and has been a great filter for me to determine whose analyses, conjectures, posts or other statements I should study….or ignore.
 
Looks like both FTC and NHTSA are looking to make life harder today. NHTSA is upgrading its investigation from Prelim to Engineering analysis, and FTC wants to presumably look into the letters some congressmen have written in the past, most likely at the behest of auto dealers, etc. It all reeks of Dems wanting to show who the boss is.

Not linking to any of this crap. Interestingly my broker feed was marking the upgrade of NHTSA investigation as a strong positive. 😃

And now we know why Elon was asking for "pitbull" lawyers to seek employment with Tesla. Hopefully he's learned an aggressive defense is the best defense.

If NHTSA isn't requesting phantom breaking info from other manufs, they are opening themselves up to some serious bias claims. Wonder what the status of this investigation is:
 
Looks like both FTC and NHTSA are looking to make life harder today. NHTSA is upgrading its investigation from Prelim to Engineering analysis, and FTC wants to presumably look into the letters some congressmen have written in the past, most likely at the behest of auto dealers, etc. It all reeks of Dems wanting to show who the boss is.

I think this sums up the issue:

All subject crashes occurred on controlled-access highways. Where incident video was available, the approach to the first responder scene would have been visible to the driver an average of 8 seconds leading up to impact. Additional forensic data available for eleven of the collisions indicated that no drivers took evasive action between 2-5 seconds prior to impact, and the vehicle reported all had their hands on the steering wheel leading up to the impact. However, most drivers appeared to comply with the subject vehicle driver engagement system as evidenced by the hands-on wheel detection and nine of eleven vehicles exhibiting no driver engagement visual or chime alerts until the last minute preceding the collision (four of these exhibited no visual or chime alerts at all during the final Autopilot use cycle).

So people had ~8 seconds to avoid the collision, but they didn't do anything. i.e. they weren't paying attention.

What I haven't seen NHTSA ask/gather is how many non-Tesla vehicles have had collisions with first responder vehicles. Does Tesla have a non-proportional number of these?
 
We need someone to do a battery teardown to clarify this.
We don't. There is in fact zero evidence that suggests bottom cooling and all evidence when properly interpreted proves it's side cooling only. The bottom plate cooling was speculation that ran wild. The simple fact that the entire cell can will conduct heat means that the side cooling ribbons will cool the entire cell including the bottom.