Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[bkp_duke]

Actually, no.

Tesla ordered to have Elon Musk delete anti-union tweet

The NRLB has directed Tesla to ask Musk to remove his offending tweet, and to offer a job back to a terminated employee who participated in union organizing.

www.cnbc.com

The NLRB does not actually have authority to order anything. You will note how they have had to petition to have a court back them up (which the court has NOT).

 

[Matias]

The NLRB does not actually have authority to order anything. You will note how they have had to petition to have a court back them up (which the court has NOT).

Isn’t the case still pending?

 

[M|S|M MYP]

And my counter-argument to that would be this:

Those "Made in USA" manufacturers have over the past 30 years outsourced more and more of auto and auto-component production abroad. Where? To countries for the most part which unionization pretty much never happens (SE Asia, Mexico, etc.). This has gutted the majority of the jobs for auto manufacturing in the USA, to a level far far lower than they would have been if there was no unionization but still good and proper compensation for workers.

Tesla, the opposite. It now has 4 of the 6 top "Made in America" autos:

Tesla dominates the list of most American-made cars

Tesla dominates the list of most American-made cars, now with the Model Y taking the top spot on the 2022...

electrek.co

Furthermore, there is INSANE corruption at the UAW, and it appears to be at all levels. By any reasonable outside observer, it appears that the main focus of the UAW is more on the enrichment of the UAW management and upper tiers, than on "rights" for their workers. Rights, I will add, that are already guaranteed strongly by various laws. We are not back in the late 1800s in sweat shops over here.

Second UAW president sentenced to 28 months in prison in union corruption probe

He is one of 15 people to have been charged, including three Fiat Chrysler executives and his predecessor, who was sentenced last month to 21 months in prison.

www.cnbc.com

AFL-CIO’s Shuler ‘Disgusted’ by UAW Corruption, Mulled Removal

AFL-CIO President Liz Shuler said she and other union leaders considered expelling the United Auto Workers from the labor federation during a corruption scandal that felled the union’s leadership.

news.bloomberglaw.com

UAW corruption scandal deepens as feds charge 16th person after $2M misspent

The criminal case is the first filed since a federal judge installed a corruption watchdog to oversee reforms within the United Auto Workers.

www.detroitnews.com

Home - UAW Investigation

Multiple high-ranking union officials pleaded guilty to enriching themselves at the expense of workers. That’s just the start of the UAW’s troubles.

uawinvestigation.com

And then there is the insane spending on political lobbying but the UAW, which is a large, LARGE part of their budget (not directly on workers' benefits):

United Auto Workers Profile: Summary

United Auto Workers organization profile. Contributions in the 2022 cycle: $5,892,729. Lobbying in 2021: $762,000. Outside Spending in the 2022 cycle: $0.

www.opensecrets.org

What does the UAW spend its money on?

While planning to starve striking workers on the picket line with just $275 a week, the UAW continues to spend millions on its staff at its national headquarters.

www.wsws.org

I mean, let's be honest, if there were even a FRACTION of the his happening at Tesla, the media would have already set Tesla on FIRE.

Great info....i guess one positive if Tesla Unionizes would be whenever @POTUS says "Good Union Paying Jobs.....", He will be recognizing and talking about TESLA!!!

/s

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Anyway workers have the right to union if they want.

Just like you have the right to troll investor forums if you want.

If the employees are being treated badly then they should unionize. I haven’t seen evidence that they aren’t being treated well and fairly compensated.

I personally chose to work in construction and join a union because I knew I wasn’t the most motivated person, and that I might need the protection of a union. Unions aren’t good for the mission.

 

[Matias]

Just like you have the right to troll investor forums if you want.

If the employees are being treated badly then they should unionize. I haven’t seen evidence that they aren’t being treated well and fairly compensated.

I personally chose to work in construction and join a union because I knew I wasn’t the most motivated person, and that I might need the protection of a union. Unions aren’t good for the mission.

Interesting. You yourself joined union but don’t want Tesla workers to join.

I personally only say, that they can decide themselves according to federal law.

 

[unk45]

ROFL @9837264723849 disagreeing with this, the self-proclaimed French Socialist, there is a shock (not).

Remind me what the French are known for in industrial prowess? Can you even be good at high-volume production with a 35h work week and unionized labor?
…

There are NO EXAMPLE of unionized companies being nimble. And to survive and excel in today's business landscape, those two things are required.

Beware of absolute statements; absolutes allow a single exception to destroy a point.
As for France and unionized:
Dasssault Systemes ( even ignorant people might know Tesla and SpaceX both use CÁTIA), A crucial part of permitting high-volume production);
Air Liquide. This one is a crucial supplier to SpaceX and Tesla. have you heard of them, one of the two largest global suppliers of industrial gasses. High volume in one of the more difficult industries.
Thales. Thales radar tracks the Crew Dragon on its way to the ISS
This is only four who are good enough to supply crucial advantages to Tesla and/or SpaceX.

you’re correct in that “NO EXAMPLE…” exists if you really intend to be singular. There are many examples of unionized French companies that have high-volume production, are French, and are clearly innovative.

There re many, many more. There are numerous small software and hardware innovators.

Head to Toulouse sometime and you might learn some more.

Finally, prejudice invariably restricts vision and forces those influenced by it to not see reality clearly.

In my adult life: Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and China have regularly been seen as hopelessly lacking in innovation as well s high quality. One by one even the most prejudiced have been disabused of their myopia.

France, the USA, Germany…everywhere there re problems. If Tesla and SpaceX do anything they should disabuse the old political system and nationalistic biases. After all, the founder of all this was a weird kid from South Africa.

Finally, nearly all absolutes can easily be disproven. This one required only ten minutes.

 

[Krugerrand]

You don't think that workers have the right to union?

In THIS context. No. Such an employee is too stupid to work at Tesla if they want it unionized. They should be sent on their way where they are free to pick any number of auto factories with existing unions. Maybe they can pool their resources and join with the work-from-home group and form a union.

 

[Singuy]

Lets just say a union did end up negotiating the ability for employees to buy options. Have anyone compared the stock price of unionized auto vs no unionized?

GM has gone nowhere since IPO(even dropped below IPO)
F's share price has gone nowhere for 20+ years

Your options are as good as toilet paper in a union, so having options on the table doesn't mean anything. Whoever thinks they are not compensated well enough at Tesla while their follow peers became millionaires recently are just too stupid to not buy company stock(because they are the typical American who spends every cent they make).

 

[Captkerosene]

By the time Tesla has a union problem, Tesla will have solved their union problem.

 

[nativewolf]

1. If you noticed on Tesla's FSD package they changed the conditions a few years ago to really restrict the definition of "FSD complete" is. I suspect that Robotaxis will only be legal with an additional "upgrade package" that has new hardware for cameras (perhaps even adding new cameras).

2. I suspect that Tesla's robotaxi-specific vehicle will have more cameras and a different resolution quality than current Tesla cars.

3. Tesla can roll out robotaxi today and just geofence it to residential neighborhoods and disable left turns. Totally possible. I don't think they want to cheat, but in a "worst case" scenario a robotaxi "MVP" pathway is still possible there.

4. Even though I was a former Telecom VC that looked at a lot of hardware infrastructure (and vision-based machine learning) systems for applications like monitoring cable lines, I am STILL out of my depth in this area. I have no clue if that Reddit dude (or anyone else) is blowing steam up my ass. But I don't know if the Tesla people are (and honestly Duoma seems sorta like a charlatan to me). There's no "Sandy Munroe" in the Tesla influencer world with strong real AI credentials that can dive in deep. That's what makes it a black box for me and why I'm desperately trying to information seek in this area (even though we know it won't be needed for a $10 trillion+ Tesla valuation with cars + energy storage).

Always on the search for more info...

Yes, it's not material to the opportunity. It is a big what if and Ark has done a tremendous disservice to the community with that ridiculous model that they rolled out. But then they like Palantir and they are a fraud.

 

[Stretch2727]

Lets just say a union did end up negotiating the ability for employees to buy options. Have anyone compared the stock price of unionized auto vs no unionized?

GM has gone nowhere since IPO(even dropped below IPO)
F's share price has gone nowhere for 20+ years

Your options are as good as toilet paper in a union, so having options on the table doesn't mean anything. Whoever thinks they are not compensated well enough at Tesla while their follow peers became millionaires recently are just too stupid to not buy company stock(because they are the typical American who spends every cent they make).

ok, but personally I blame the lack of stock price appreciation for legacy on management not unions. The union raises costs higher than they need to be with work rules etc and may slow things down but management clearly failed.

In 2015 I was looking for a 2nd EV to lease or buy. I was surprised that availability and selection had actually gotten worse than 2012 when I got my first non Tesla EV. Model S had been out for 3 years, Model 3 was on the horizon and they did nothing. OK GM thought they could slow Tesla with the Bolt but it was clearly not even close for anyone that looked at the specs. How they could not see Tesla as an existential threat was just shocking to me.

They needed to build the organization for EV's and vertically integrate back in 2012, not 2019 or 2020. Ford is really just trying doing this now. GM just pivots depending who is in the Whitehouse and I doubt it will survive.

One of the reasons I invested heavily in TSLA in 2015.

 

[bkp_duke]

By the time Tesla has a union problem, Tesla will have solved their union problem.

BINGO - Optimus Subprime is the biggest union-buster in history, bar none.

 

[Cobbler]

Interesting 10 minute video I would like to share:
I read about the Google engineer who was convinced Google created a sentient AI and my first impression was that the engineer was just crazy, oversensitive on trained conversations.
Then I took the time to listen to him. There is really a much greater picture to see here

 

[bkp_duke]

ok, but personally I blame the lack of stock price appreciation for legacy on management not unions. The union raises costs higher than they need to be with work rules etc and may slow things down but management clearly failed.

In 2015 I was looking for a 2nd EV to lease or buy. I was surprised that availability and selection had actually gotten worse than 2012 when I got my first non Tesla EV. Model S had been out for 3 years, Model 3 was on the horizon and they did nothing. OK GM thought they could slow Tesla with the Bolt but it was clearly not even close for anyone that looked at the specs. How they could not see Tesla as an existential threat was just shocking to me.

They needed to build the organization for EV's and vertically integrate back in 2012, not 2019 or 2020. Ford is really just trying doing this now. GM just pivots depending who is in the Whitehouse and I doubt it will survive.

One of the reasons I invested heavily in TSLA in 2015.

Management and Unions are peas in a pod at traditional auto. No one gets into upper management at traditional auto without tacit approval of the union. No one.

And to be frank - when was the last "disruptive" company that existed that was unionized? Can't think of a single example. Unions by their very nature are non-disruptive.

 

[Skryll]

You don't think that workers have the right to union?

UAW is a predatory union. Not like what you know from Europe. They lie and misrepresent for power and influence, and slowing down EV adoption appears to be part of their agenda. They subverted even the pro-environment and generally pro-EV SierraClub with their agenda and are the one reason why I stopped donating to the Sierra Club after they published this 'fact sheet'

Here is my response to the Sierra Club about this UAW coauthored piece:

"While I appreciated standing in for environmental justice and trying to hold tesla accountable for their claims of sustainability, I do find this 'fact sheet' particularly wong, and it supports false statements that the opponents of the fight against climate change spin in order to slow down the electrification:

https://www.sierraclub.org/sites/www.sierraclub.org/files/sce-authors/u23721/CHP-TX-1900_Tesla .pdf

It conflates the personal wealth of the CEO with the company asking for tax breaks typical in the industry, which is an insideous attempt to raise negative sentiment based on envy and greed. It works. I have heard people repeat those sentiments. Also the statement typically placed in la times and similar pro fossil fuel / anti ev campaigns that 'tesla relies extensively on government handouts' when really they paid back loans early, is targeted at the same thing, to create negative sentiment.

Lastly the statement that 2020 only a handful of solar roof have been deployed nation wide, when there are more than that in my county alone, is outright false. You can easily look up the permits and I have personally driven to 5 of them in my local area when I wanted to find out if they really look as nice as on the brochures.

It is shameful to publish such a slanted negative document and title it 'fact sheet'.

I will not renew my sierra club membership because of that.

Have a good day."

 

[ByeByeJohnny]

Tesla Norway has been open for deliveries over the weekend. Both Saturday and Sunday. Can't even remember last time that happened. Almost only Chinese, and almost no German made cars the last few days which seems to collaborate the story about those being on hold.

Tesla Registration Stats

 

[scaesare]

Keep joking by pointing out some of the personal commentary but when you look into substantive comments he makes it’s a lot more meaningful.

Personal commentary?

He made the statement regarding Tesla's infrastructure: "Tesla doesn't even have the backend infrastructure to process customer car data". That's about as close to address the factuality of his assertions as you can get.

I deliberately did not quote some of his more egregious subjective comments that nonethless tend to indicate a personal bias.

 

[Stormy24]

Just like you have the right to troll investor forums if you want.

If the employees are being treated badly then they should unionize. I haven’t seen evidence that they aren’t being treated well and fairly compensated.

I personally chose to work in construction and join a union because I knew I wasn’t the most motivated person, and that I might need the protection of a union. Unions aren’t good for the mission.

 

[StarFoxisDown!]

Tesla Norway has been open for deliveries over the weekend. Both Saturday and Sunday. Can't even remember last time that happened. Almost only Chinese, and almost no German made cars the last few days which seems to collaborate the story about those being on hold.

Tesla Registration Stats

Not really. If you look at the trend for the past few weekends, there’s hardly ever been Berlin made Y deliveries over the weekends

 

[brantse]

Actually, no.

Tesla ordered to have Elon Musk delete anti-union tweet

The NRLB has directed Tesla to ask Musk to remove his offending tweet, and to offer a job back to a terminated employee who participated in union organizing.

www.cnbc.com

I just finished reading Power Play ( which I didn't realize had a somewhat negative slant of Elon) which chronicles the history of Tesla. It devotes at least a chapter talking about Ortiz and his efforts to help try to unionize at Fremont. It mentions that he took part in some efforts to illegally steal HR data and use that to target employees. I'm pretty confident there was more than enough solid data for him to be fired, and that's despite the book's consistent negative view of Elon.