Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[NicoV]

Toyota Runs Out of US Tax Credits for EVs, Joining Tesla and GM

Toyota Motor Corp. has used up a key US tax credit for hybrid and electric vehicles, a milestone that the automaker says will raise its costs and hinder adoption of climate-friendly cars.

www.bloomberg.com

Seems that Toyota has already exhausted their 200,000 vehicle subsidy for that EV tax credit before they even sold a single BTUZ4YZG in the US because it counts towards hybrid vehicles. What a shame.

I wonder if Toyota has more lobbying clout then Tesla does in terms of getting the tax credit reinstated. I know Tesla doesn't need it anymore but the other guys certainly do.

The typical Toyota buyer will drive their BZ4X until the wheels fall off.


That may be less long than that they’re used to from Toyota.

 

[wws]

Toyota Runs Out of US Tax Credits for EVs, Joining Tesla and GM

Toyota Motor Corp. has used up a key US tax credit for hybrid and electric vehicles, a milestone that the automaker says will raise its costs and hinder adoption of climate-friendly cars.

www.bloomberg.com

Seems that Toyota has already exhausted their 200,000 vehicle subsidy for that EV tax credit before they even sold a single BTUZ4YZG in the US because it counts towards hybrid vehicles. What a shame.

I wonder if Toyota has more lobbying clout then Tesla does in terms of getting the tax credit reinstated. I know Tesla doesn't need it anymore but the other guys certainly do.

The Bloomberg article blurs "hybrid" with "plug-in hybrid". The 200k applies to all plug-ins - BEV and PHEV. In Toyotas case, the Prius Prime, and the previous Plug-in-Prius.

Ford has to be pretty close to the 200k threshold as well. Prior to the Mach-E, they sold quite a few C-Max and Fusion Energi PHEVs. Even a few Focus BEVs.

 

[hobbes]

@Maarten provided us with this info back in Nov '21:

View attachment 823640

The price per kWh has gone up a bit since then...

At this Supercharger

• 0.71 EUR/kWh without subscription
• 0.58 EUR/kWh (the same price as Tesla customers) for 12.99 EUR/month

Source: nextnews video of 6/17/22 reporting on German supercharger opening to other EVs (German, use subtitle function):

 

[StealthP3D]

I'm feeling petty today since TSLA's valuation is still a joke.

So I take a lot of joy in both Mary's and Cadillac's twitter posts getting a laughable number of "likes". Cadillac barely got 100 likes....not 100k likes.....100 likes. Mary can't even break the 50 likes barrier.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542895927559602183

Hey GM! No one gives a damn about your cars

Tesla does spectacular light show using only their cars.

GM VP of Corporate Imaging: We should do a Lyric light show.
GM VP of Promotional Production Budgets: I think that's a good idea, but funding is a little tight.
GM VP of Corporate Imaging: I'm sure it won't cost much, I want it to be a good reflection of how people think of GM, Cadillac and the Lyric itself.
GM VP of Promotional Production Budgets: I see, so you're saying you want a really lame light show?
GM VP of Corporate Imaging: Yes, exactly! Well, I would use a different word, but Tesla just takes the whole "pizazz" thing over the top, if you know what I mean. I want a more subdued light show, one that can be appreciated by older folks with good taste. I want it to say, "Yeah, Tesla might be louder, flashier and more exciting, but the Lyric is calming, mature and more subdued.
GM VP of Promotional Production Budgets: Well, the Tesla light show was quite the production, it probably took 6 months and close to a million dollars. GM VP of Corporate Imaging: Yup, but I don't want anything that extensive, it's got to be...,how did you put it? Oh, yes, lame. I was thinking we could make a lame light show happen for $4-$500,000.
GM VP of Promotional Budgets: Sounds good. I'll pass this through legal and get back to you in three weeks. They'll want to make sure it doesn't infringe on the concept of the Tesla light show too much.
GM VP of Corporate Imaging: OK, just make sure to emphasize it will have nothing to do with Tesla or the Tesla light show, it will be really lame and a perfect reflection our own corporate values.
GM VP of Promotional Budgets: Sounds good Boss!

 

[MP3Mike]

Ford has to be pretty close to the 200k threshold as well. Prior to the Mach-E, they sold quite a few C-Max and Fusion Energi PHEVs. Even a few Focus BEVs.

They were at 159.5k at the end of last year, the most current reporting I can find, and have probably sold close to 20k so far this year. So they only have a few months left before they will likely reach the limit and start the phase out period.

Edit: This source shows Ford at ~195k:

Of course it also thinks they will sell ~60k in Q3, which I doubt will happen.

 

[Drezil]

The price per kWh has gone up a bit since then...

At this Supercharger

• 0.71 EUR/kWh without subscription
• 0.58 EUR/kWh (the same price as Tesla customers) for 12.99 EUR/month

View attachment 823657

Source: nextnews video of 6/17/22 reporting on German supercharger opening to other EVs (German, use subtitle function):

Note: These are similar rates that i.e. Ionity takes for non-registered customers. But ionty only has 4-6 stalls per location and not 10-40.

And yes Energy is extremely expensive in germany. When we drive in the netherlands or in poland or in austria we pay only half!

 

[Artful Dodger]

I can't say exactly why, but today feels like a 'win'.

Oh, maybe it's the 2.0x Macros: (+1.24% TSLA vs +0.61% QQQ)

Yup, that's definately it.

Cheers to the Longs!

 

[ZeApelido]

Deep learning generated Tesla art, pretty cool.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1541877077892268032

 

[hobbes]

Just updated the European registration stats wiki with numbers submitted by @mrdoubleb .

A few highlights (data for June only):

• Model Y was the most sold car in Norway with a market share of 17.0% , followed by the ID4 at 8.3%
• Model Y was the most sold car in Sweden with a market share of 7.2% followed by the Kia Ceed (PHEV)
• Tesla had 9.2% market share in Switzerland (up from 5.0% in June 2021), second to Volkswagen at 9.6% (down from 13.3%)

Although this is obviously just anecdotal/cherry-picked and partly caused by the end of quarter push, still nice to see .

EDIT: Also have to give a shoutout to @Troy who does his magic on the google sheet that powers the wiki!

 

[TN Mtn Man]

The Bloomberg article blurs "hybrid" with "plug-in hybrid". The 200k applies to all plug-ins - BEV and PHEV. In Toyotas case, the Prius Prime, and the previous Plug-in-Prius.

Ford has to be pretty close to the 200k threshold as well. Prior to the Mach-E, they sold quite a few C-Max and Fusion Energi PHEVs. Even a few Focus BEVs.

As well as the Rav-4 Prime, I'd assume.

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Opening a bottle and pouring a little moonshine here. To the rest of TMC-here's a toast to the 2nd half of 2022 being kinder than H1, across the board.

 

[wws]

As well as the Rav-4 Prime, I'd assume.

Yes, and also the RAV-4 EV they did with the Tesla sourced powertrain. I wonder if they regret selling their interest in Tesla from back then?

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Yes, and also the RAV-4 EV they did with the Tesla sourced powertrain. I wonder if they regret selling their interest in Tesla from back then?

Good point, I had forgotten about that. Interesting to ponder what the market might look like had the Toyota/Tesla "partnership" survived.

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Just updated the European registration stats wiki with numbers submitted by @mrdoubleb .

A few highlights (data for June only):

• Model Y was the most sold car in Norway with a market share of 17.0% , followed by the ID4 at 8.3%
• Model Y was the most sold car in Sweden with a market share of 7.2% followed by the Kia Ceed (PHEV)
• Tesla had 9.2% market share in Switzerland (up from 5.0% in June 2021), second to Volkswagen at 9.6% (down from 13.3%)

Although this is obviously just anecdotal/cherry-picked and partly caused by the end of quarter push, still nice to see .

But...EVs "don't work" in cold climates!!!!!! /s

 

[UnknownSoldier]

Maybe someone can fill in some gaps in my knowledge. Back when Tesla developed their plug and charging technology, didn't they offer to license that to other manufacturers? Given how "clean" the design is, and how well it works, how did this the big, clunky CCS plug ever end up being the default standard for non-Tesla vehicles, especially given how poorly the charging networks work? If licensing costs were reasonable, and especially if Tesla would grant access to Superchargers to vehicles using in, adoption of the Tesla plug as the default US standard seems like it would have been a no-brainer, especially seeing how much of the market they have. Just curious as to why it never took off on non-Tesla vehicles. Of course I could be "mis-remembering" them offering the technology to others. Thanks.

Tesla open sourced their patents but their stipulation was that anyone who used Tesla's patents also needed to share theirs IIRC. At the time I guess Tesla still thought there could be a spirit of jolly cooperation to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy.

 

[wipster]

A nicer close than I anticipated.

Have a great 4th everyone!

 

[mongo]

But...EVs "don't work" in cold climates!!!!!! /s

Space is cold and satellites run on solar (and matve some hydrazine)

Tesla open sourced their patents but their stipulation was that anyone who used Tesla's patents also needed to share theirs IIRC. At the time I guess Tesla still thought there could be a spirit of jolly cooperation to accelerate the transition to sustainable energy.

The open source/ reciprocal non-blocking agreement occured much later than the Tesla chargeport design.
At the time of its creation, there was not yet an industry standard, so Tesla used what made sense to them. They offered that design to others, but with the condition of contributing to the Supercharger network. Tesla having the largest packs also was an influence as others did not have the same need for high power DC charging early on.

Why is Tesla charging different?

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

Maybe someone can fill in some gaps in my knowledge. Back when Tesla developed their plug and charging technology, didn't they offer to license that to other manufacturers? Given how "clean" the design is, and how well it works, how did this the big, clunky CCS plug ever end up being the default standard for non-Tesla vehicles, especially given how poorly the charging networks work? If licensing costs were reasonable, and especially if Tesla would grant access to Superchargers to vehicles using in, adoption of the Tesla plug as the default US standard seems like it would have been a no-brainer, especially seeing how much of the market they have. Just curious as to why it never took off on non-Tesla vehicles. Of course I could be "mis-remembering" them offering the technology to others. Thanks.

Yes, Tesla did offer to open their charging patent in good faith but the other companies would give up the ability to sue Tesla for using any patent infringement in the future (Yikes!). Additionally Tesla would have to have access to all the data on the car of other MFGs for when they plug in to make sure charging go smoothly and nothing blows up. No one took them up on the offer.

CSS1 is clunky because it's just the J1772 level 2 charger plug with 2 big high voltage lines added to the bottom to make it level 3.

 

[MP3Mike]

Yes, Tesla did offer to open their charging patent in good faith but the other companies would give up the ability to sue Tesla for using any patent infringement in the future (Yikes!). Additionally Tesla would have to have access to all the data on the car of other MFGs for when they plug in to make sure charging go smoothly and nothing blows up. No one took them up on the offer.

Opening the patents isn't the same thing as offering other OEMs the ability to use the Superchargers. Those are separate issues.

All Elon ever said about opening the Supercharger network was that other OEMs could use the Superchargers but they would have to pay their fair share of the install/maintenance/operation costs. (As well as having vehicles that could charge fast enough so as not to be a hinderance to other vehicles.) Elon said nobody had approached them about using the Supercharger network, but at least one manufacturer, Bollinger, said they tried. (Of course they really haven't gotten anywhere with their vehicles.) And Aptera has showed a Tesla port and said they think that the Supercharger connector should be the standard.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Picture would be nice, would make a good meme IMHO..

Parking a Tesla outside a GM dealership to attract foot traffic:

Cheers!