Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[henchman24]

Isn't a Mach E a CUV, just as a MY is? Neither would be a SUV in my mind, but I don't know what kind of convoluted definition the government uses. Traditionally a SUV would be based on a truck frame and capable of significant "off-road" and towing applications.

The gov't defines (and the only one that really matters) the Y as a small SUV and Mach E is a small station wagon. Mach E is likely to get re-certified for the 23 Model year, but it'll have to happen quick.

 

[Usain]

Isn't a Mach E a CUV, just as a MY is? Neither would be a SUV in my mind, but I don't know what kind of convoluted definition the government uses. Traditionally a SUV would be based on a truck frame and capable of significant "off-road" and towing applications.

I've been trying to find a definitive source on how and why the Mach E got classified as a station wagon. I've come up empty, but there has to be a government document somewhere that defines vehicle classifications.

Someone here said the Mach E isn't classified as an SUV because it isn't rated for towing. But he didn't provide a source. I think it could also be that the Mach E can't be classified as an SUV because of its low ground clearance. But I'm just guessing.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

I've been trying to find a definitive source on how and why the Mach E got classified as a station wagon. I've come up empty, but there has to be a government document somewhere that defines vehicle classifications.

Someone here said the Mach E isn't classified as an SUV because it isn't rated for towing. But he didn't provide a source. I think it could also be that the Mach E can't be classified as an SUV because of its low ground clearance. But I'm just guessing.

Mach E can't be classified as anything because it loses power and Ford does not know how to fix it

 

[dhanson865]

I've been trying to find a definitive source on how and why the Mach E got classified as a station wagon. I've come up empty, but there has to be a government document somewhere that defines vehicle classifications.

Someone here said the Mach E isn't classified as an SUV because it isn't rated for towing. But he didn't provide a source. I think it could also be that the Mach E can't be classified as an SUV because of its low ground clearance. But I'm just guessing.

Someone posted a few pages back that it's the tailgate that makes it a station wagon.

But I just googled the Mach-e tailgate and it looked like a hatch to me.

 

[M|S|M MYP]

The competition is def heating up ....

 

[Nocturnal]

I've been trying to find a definitive source on how and why the Mach E got classified as a station wagon. I've come up empty, but there has to be a government document somewhere that defines vehicle classifications.

Someone here said the Mach E isn't classified as an SUV because it isn't rated for towing. But he didn't provide a source. I think it could also be that the Mach E can't be classified as an SUV because of its low ground clearance. But I'm just guessing.

EPA considers the Mach-E a small station wagon, not an SUV. Why? So far, I can't find any definitions. The model Y being considered an SUV is going to be a several billion dollar advantage.

Gas Mileage of 2021 Small Station Wagons

Gas Mileage, greenhouse gas emission, air pollutant emissions and of model year 2021 Small Station Wagons vehicles

www.fueleconomy.gov

This is slightly more informative but still.

Frequently Asked Questions

Frequently asked questions about fuel economy and gas mileage, estimating greenhouse gases, and the gas guzzler tax

www.fueleconomy.gov

 

[woodisgood]

In 2011 CAFE standards changed 2WD small SUVs to passenger cars instead of light trucks. (so they had to adhere to stricter emissions standards). Honestly don’t know enough about Mach-E to know which trims are 2WD vs 4 but at least some are 2WD.

Obviously emissions standards become a moot point to base classification around when talking about EVs.

 

[The Accountant]

Someone posted a few pages back that it's the tailgate that makes it a station wagon.

But I just googled the Mach-e tailgate and it looked like a hatch to me.

The Bill states "For purposes of this paragraph, the Secretary shall prescribe such regulations or other guidance as the Secretary determines necessary for determining vehicle classifications using criteria similar to that employed by the Environmental Protection Agency and the Department of the Energy to determine size and class of vehicles"

I went to the EPA site and found this:

 

[The Accountant]

EPA considers the Mach-E a small station wagon, not an SUV. Why? So far, I can't find any definitions. The model Y being considered an SUV is going to be a several billion dollar advantage.

Gas Mileage of 2021 Small Station Wagons

Gas Mileage, greenhouse gas emission, air pollutant emissions and of model year 2021 Small Station Wagons vehicles

www.fueleconomy.gov

This is slightly more informative but still.

Frequently Asked Questions

Frequently asked questions about fuel economy and gas mileage, estimating greenhouse gases, and the gas guzzler tax

www.fueleconomy.gov

The 2021 model was a station wagon. It appears the 2022 model is an SUV:

 

[Beltsbear]

I've been trying to find a definitive source on how and why the Mach E got classified as a station wagon. I've come up empty, but there has to be a government document somewhere that defines vehicle classifications.

Someone here said the Mach E isn't classified as an SUV because it isn't rated for towing. But he didn't provide a source. I think it could also be that the Mach E can't be classified as an SUV because of its low ground clearance. But I'm just guessing.

It has to do with the ability to create a flat floor area behind the drivers seats. But both vehicles seem to do that in a similar way. i think they could get the Mach-E re-classified if need be.

 

[brantse]

Likely location for the next gigafactory, eh?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1556695303977373697

 

[scaesare]

So Elon says FSD 10.69 is dropping on 8/20?

I get why he's calling it 10.69, but what is the significance of 8/20? He can't know for sure that the release date is 8/20, so is there some numerology I am missing?

Twice as good as 4/20?

 

[mongo]

SUVs are derivatives of light trucks.
Station wagons are derivatives of passenger vehicles.
Model Y is a light truck because it has 3 rows of seats and the rear 2 sets fold for more cargo area.
Mach E is only 2 row
(Tailgate is not defined)
40 CFR § 600.002 - Definitions.

Sport utility vehicle (SUV) means a light truck with an extended roof line to increase cargo or passenger capacity, cargo compartment open to the passenger compartment, and one or more rear seats readily removed or folded to facilitate cargo carrying.

Station wagon means a passenger automobile with an extended roof line to increase cargo or passenger capacity, cargo compartment open to the passenger compartment, a tailgate, and one or more rear seats readily removed or folded to facilitate cargo carrying.

Light truck means an automobile that is not a passenger automobile, as defined by the Secretary of Transportation at 49 CFR 523.5. This term is interchangeable with “non-passenger automobile.” The term “light truck” includes medium-duty passenger vehicles which are manufactured during 2011 and later model years.

49 CFR § 523.5 - Non-passenger automobile.

§ 523.5 Non-passenger automobile.

A non-passenger automobile means an automobile that is not a passenger automobile or a work truck and includes vehicles described in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section:


(a) An automobile designed to perform at least one of the following functions:


(1) Transport more than 10 persons;


(2) Provide temporary living quarters;


(3) Transport property on an open bed;


(4) Provide, as sold to the first retail purchaser, greater cargo-carrying than passenger-carrying volume, such as in a cargo van; if a vehicle is sold with a second-row seat, its cargo-carrying volume is determined with that seat installed, regardless of whether the manufacturer has described that seat as optional; or


(5) Permit expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying purposes or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through:


(i) For non-passenger automobiles manufactured prior to model year 2012, the removal of seats by means installed for that purpose by the automobile's manufacturer or with simple tools, such as screwdrivers and wrenches, so as to create a flat, floor level, surface extending from the forwardmost point of installation of those seats to the rear of the automobile's interior; or


(ii) For non-passenger automobiles manufactured in model year 2008 and beyond, for vehicles equipped with at least 3 rows of designated seating positions as standard equipment, permit expanded use of the automobile for cargo-carrying purposes or other nonpassenger-carrying purposes through the removal or stowing of foldable or pivoting seats so as to create a flat, leveled cargo surface extending from the forwardmost point of installation of those seats to the rear of the automobile's interior.


(b) An automobile capable of off-highway operation, as indicated by the fact that it:


(1)


(i) Has 4-wheel drive; or


(ii) Is rated at more than 6,000 pounds gross vehicle weight; and


(2) Has at least four of the following characteristics calculated when the automobile is at curb weight, on a level surface, with the front wheels parallel to the automobile's longitudinal centerline, and the tires inflated to the manufacturer's recommended pressure -


(i) Approach angle of not less than 28 degrees.


(ii) Breakover angle of not less than 14 degrees.


(iii) Departure angle of not less than 20 degrees.


(iv) Running clearance of not less than 20 centimeters.


(v) Front and rear axle clearances of not less than 18 centimeters each.

 

[growler23]

I'm not sure why I said EPA. Here is what the bill says:

I have no idea which "Secretary" it's talking about. Interior (EPA)? Transportation? Energy?

But anyway, good luck to whoever has to figure this out by December.

My guess is it is Secretary Pete (of Transportation), and from what I've seen from him, that gives Tesla as good a chance as they can get during rulemaking. While being careful not to go against the early days of the Biden don't-say-Tesla line, he strikes me as a technocrat (i.e. data-driven) and has made positive mentions of Tesla during his later talks. IIRC he drives an EV (Mach E I believe) as well, or is probably 'driven in' an EV nowadays.
Still waiting to see if more $ going to the other manufacturers would help the mission, more than filling Tesla's coffers. If a lot goes to Tesla, it will be deployed 'on mission' very rapidly - this we can say with high certainty given the track record. If a lot goes to the other guys, it will greatly depend on them using it to transform themselves (I know, poor track record for them now but the rising tide of un-profitability _may_ have them scrambling).

(Insert requisite Mach E cutdowns here)

 

[StealthP3D]

Yes, the bill is a waste of tax payer dollars (and so are PLENTY of other things) but it is unfortunately needed so that Legacy US Auto doesn't fail and can slowly transition to EVs without going out of business or being bought by the Chinese.

I don't know why you think it needed. The transition to EV's will happen more quickly if legacy US Auto does fail. And the sooner they fail, the more quickly the EV transition will happen.

I would not be saying this if legacy auto was not in debt up to their eyeballs (relative to their earning power) but dragging all their legacy debt into the EV transition will slow things down, not speed them up. The existing capital assets of legacy auto (manufacturing plants) are not applicable to building EV's. Legacy auto doesn't want people to know this because they are trying to leverage ignorance on this matter to keep them relevant. Their high debt load and the ongoing expense of all their inefficient legacy departments and factories impairs their ability to invest in the required number of new facilities to transition to EV's in a timely manner.

Legacy auto resembles dead men walking. They think as long as they are wearing nice suits no one will notice they are already dead. Don't fall for that fake narrative. Keeping legacy auto alive will greatly slow down the transition to EV's.

 

[jerry33]

I'm not sure why I said EPA. Here is what the bill says:

I have no idea which "Secretary" it's talking about. Interior (EPA)? Transportation? Energy?

Perhaps Susie McNamara?

 

[henchman24]

The 2021 model was a station wagon. It appears the 2022 model is an SUV:

View attachment 838159

Yup... turns out the 22 Mach E has a GVWR of 5800lbs (5980 for GT) and was rated for it. No official tow ratings, so apparently GVWR certification is all that is needed.

Only know this as there was heavy debate on the Mach E sites and it was buried in the EPA certification guidelines.. There are some restrictions on sizes, types of doors, clearance, 2wd vs 4wd (though 2020's version made that muddier).. but the only one holding up was GVWR certification which was thought to be tied with the GCVR (adds tongue weight).

 

[Fred42]

Likely location for the next gigafactory, eh?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1556695303977373697

Tesla is likely shopping around in multiple places.

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

I don't know why you think it needed. The transition to EV's will happen more quickly if legacy US Auto does fail. And the sooner they fail, the more quickly the EV transition will happen.

I was just saying the ramifications of them failing 'overnight' would be huge. Not only jobs lost (across multiple industries) but just think if a foreign company bought the Ford or GM name after they failed. I bet the Chinese government is salivating at the thought of owning those American brand names swapping out BYD for a Ford/GM badge and selling to unsuspecting customers like hotcakes.

Good thing we have Tesla or else the entire US auto industry would soon be owned by foreign investors.

 

[wipster]

Tesla is likely shopping around in multiple places.

Buffalo is pretty damn close to Toronto...