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I agree. However new and old American auto companies have this high propensity to go bankrupt. The probability of default is 99% according to historical data.

Auto company that doesn't hold the bankruptcy title

Ford
Tesla

Auto company that has a junk bond status

Ford
Tesla

Auto companies that have gone bankrupt

A[edit]​

B[edit]​

C[edit]​

D[edit]​

E[edit]​

F[edit]​

  • Fageol (1900, 1917)[83]
  • Fal-Car (1909–1914)[88]
    Also known as F.A.L.
  • Falcon Engineering Company (1907–1909)[83]
    Unrelated to Ford Falcon
  • Falcon-Knight (1927–1929)[83]
  • Famous (1908–1909)[83]
  • Fanning (1901–1903)[83]
  • Farmack (1915–1916)[83]
  • Farner (1922–1923)[83]
  • Faulkner-Blanchard (1910)
  • Federal (1907–1909)[83]
  • Federal Steam (1901–1902)[30]
  • Fenton (1913–1914)[83]
    Unrelated to Fenton Headers
  • Ferris (1920–1922)[2]
  • Fey Touring (1897–1906)[89][90]
  • Fiberfab (1964–1983)
  • Fidelia (1913–1914)[2]
  • Field (1886, 1905)[30]
  • Fina-Sport (1953–1954)
  • Firestone-Columbus (1909–1915)[83]
  • Fischer-Detroit (1914)
  • Fisher (1901–1905)[83]
  • Fisker Automotive (2007–2014)
  • Flagler (1914)[91]
    Based in Michigan
  • Flanders 20 (1910–1912)[83]
  • Flanders Manufacturing Company (1912–1914)[92]
  • Flanders (1913)
    'Flanders Six' model
  • Flexbi (1904)[83]
  • Flint (1923–1927)[83]
  • Flyer Motor Car Company (1913–1914)
  • Forest (1905–1906) Organized in Boston.[93]
  • Forest City[47] (1905[93])
    Manufactured as the Jewell beginning in 1906. Organized in Cleveland, Ohio, & named for the city nickname.[93]
  • Forsyth (circa 1896) Franklin, Minnesota; only a prototype built.[93]
  • Forth (1905)
    New York company, one of two of the same name, organized by Clarence Forth. No cars built. [94]
  • Forth (1910-1911)
    Mansfield, Ohio, company, one of two of the same name, organized by Clarence Forth. Only one prototype car assembled; went bankrupt late 1911.[95]
  • Fort Pitt[83] (1908–1910, 1911)
    Organized in New Kensington, Pennsylvania; moved to Pittsburgh 1911. Always known as the Pittsburgh Six[96]
  • Foster (1889,1901–1904)[30]
  • Fostoria (1906–1907)[83]
  • Fournier-Searchmont[97]
  • Fox (1921–1923)[83]
  • Franklin (1902–1934)
  • Frayer-Miller (1904–1910)[83]
  • Frazer (1946–1951)
  • Frederickson (1914)[83]
  • Fredonia (1902–1904)
  • Fremont (1920–1922)[83]
  • Friedman Automobile Company (1900–1903)[98]
  • Friend Motors Corporation (1920–1921)
  • Fritchle Electric (1905–1920)[83]
  • Frontenac (1906–1913)
  • Frontenac Motor Corporation (1921–1925)[83]
  • Frontmobile (1917–1918)[83]
  • F.R.P. (1914–1916)[83]
  • F.S. (1911–1912)[83][99]
  • Fuller (1908–1910)[83]
  • F.W.D. (1910–1912)[37]
    Based in Wisconsin

G[edit]​

H[edit]​



I[edit]​

J[edit]​

K[edit]​

L[edit]​



M[edit]​



N[edit]​

O[edit]​



P[edit]​



Q[edit]​

R[edit]​

S[edit]​

T[edit]​

U[edit]​

V[edit]​

W[edit]​

X[edit]​

Y[edit]​

Z[edit]​

  • Zehr (1912–1915)[3]
  • Zent (1900–1902, 1904–1906)[3]
  • Zentmobile (1903)[3]
  • Zimmer Motorcars (1978–1988)
  • Zimmerman (1908–1915)[3]
  • Zip (1913–1914)[3]
Spam much? Next time link it please, ain't nobody got time to scroll past all that!
 
I do not know what "too much" is in regards to one's eggs in one's basket. And there are several places in the world that would be better for the mission than putting another plant in China.

I'm not so sure. Other than the freak COVID black swan event, Giga Shanghai has been an absolute juggernaut. It's also the world's largest market for EVs. I say more eggs, AND more baskets!
 
I don’t know if this is the same in all European countries (I expect so because the European grid is one big integrated grid), but in Belgium the power line infrastructure is owned and maintained by state-owned companies, and the power generation is done by different companies.
My pre-war yearly electricity bill is about 4K euro, of which less than 1K is actual electricity, less than 1K is VAT and other taxes, and the rest goes to those state owned companies as a compensation for the use of the grid. That part is so high because it is also a government sanctioned monopoly (there is only 1 such company operating in the same region) with all its inefficiencies.
The war has changed the picture completely. The electricity part of the bill has gone up significantly, while the other parts have remained the same. I still have a contract with the same fixed price (per kWh) for the next 14 months, but due to the price increases no electricity company offers fixed price contracts anymore, and the only currently offered contracts have a variable price that gets adapted to the market price every 1 or 3 months.
In august that would have meant a yearly price of 8K+ for me, currently it means a 13K+ price.
I’m lucky I don’t have any natural gas usage anymore. Gas users now have monthly bills as high as their yearly bills pre-war!
In this European energy crisis, Diesel and Gasoline has only increased moderately (compared to gas and electricity). For cars, ICE drivers now have similar or cheaper km costs than EV drivers. CNG drivers stopped using their cars because way too expensive.
Not only is the price/km cost incentive gone for EV drivers, because so much of the family budget has gone to paying energy bills, there is a lot less budget available for new cars. This will no doubt have an impact on both ICE and EV car sales.
Octopus intelligent still offering annual contract with 7p/kw car charging at night. So still possible to charge a car economically. During the day is another matter.
 
Fortune - today:

Elon Musk told Trump to sail into the sunset, now the former President tells supporters it’s time to get rid of electric cars in Pennsylvania rally rant

Excerpt:

At a speech this weekend in the coal-mining town of Wilkes-Barre in Pennsylvania, Trump hinted he would roll back any such subsidies, recounting a story about a friend fed up with driving their EV from Kentucky to Washington, DC, due to all the alleged charging stops.

“He told me (…) ‘please, please let’s get rid of this stuff’,” claimed Trump, adding it allegedly took the person “more time to charge the damn car” than spent driving it.
 
Some people may not understand how much a miracle it is for any auto to not go bankrupt in the US. The point was to get you to scroll.

Also why credit rating agencies are not a fan of giving investment grade to US automakers.
I get the point you were making, but still found it annoying. Please don't make a habit of that sort of thing.
 
I'm not so sure. Other than the freak COVID black swan event, Giga Shanghai has been an absolute juggernaut. It's also the world's largest market for EVs. I say more eggs, AND more baskets!
And more cowbell!


p.s., I used to sing in a Rock band and played cowbell on our pitiful version of the Reaper...
 
Just for a bit of history. Brookfield is Canadian, and was formed in 1899 to establish public tramways in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro. The Brazilian name for light rail is ‘bonde’ after their preferred financing method. It spawned the Rio de Janeiro electric company (Light) thus fomenting the bizarre municipal voltage of 127v. Soon they generated vast amounts of capital that ended out much later spawning Brookfield too.

FWIW, I have a few long-term friends, and spouse’s schoolmates who are now in senior management. I met my spouse when leading a bond syndication for them.

While admitting my bias Brookfield promotes electrification and sustainability in their projects. In their buildings they include EV charging whether the present fleets justify that.

Brookfield is unusual and very progressive.
I love Brookfield. (BAM) I would not call them progressive - but I'm not really sure what you meant by that. They seem agnostic to me and are willing to buy pipelines, nuclear, electric transmission lines, transport coal or build solar and wind along with their many dams. They provide the investment opportunities their customers want. They have a great business model and very talented senior management.
 
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  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: unk45 and Skipdd
Not tax advice. I'm not a professional.

The US tax code now has "clean hydrogen" incentives that are tiered based on the lifecycle kg of CO2 equivalent per kg of hydrogen.

SEC. 45V. CREDIT FOR PRODUCTION OF CLEAN HYDROGEN.
a) AMOUNT OF CREDIT.—For purposes of section 38, the clean hydrogen production credit for any taxable year is an amount equal to the product of—
(1) the kilograms of qualified clean hydrogen produced by the taxpayer during such taxable year at a qualified clean hydrogen production facility during the 10-year period begin- ning on the date such facility was originally placed in service, multiplied by​
(2) the applicable amount (as determined under subsection (b)) with respect to such hydrogen.​
(b) APPLICABLE AMOUNT.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—For purposes of subsection (a)(2), the applicable amount shall be an amount equal to the applicable percentage of $0.60. If any amount as determined under the preceding sentence is not a multiple of 0.1 cent, such amount shall be rounded to the nearest multiple of 0.1 cent.​
(2) APPLICABLE PERCENTAGE.—For purposes of paragraph (1), the applicable percentage shall be determined as follows:​
(A) In the case of any qualified clean hydrogen which is produced through a process that results in a lifecycle​
greenhouse gas emissions rate of—​
(i) not greater than 4 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen, and​
(ii) not less than 2.5 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen,​
the applicable percentage shall be 20 percent.​
(B) In the case of any qualified clean hydrogen which is produced through a process that results in a lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions rate of—​
(i) less than 2.5 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen, and​
(ii) not less than 1.5 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen,​
the applicable percentage shall be 25 percent.​
(C) In the case of any qualified clean hydrogen which​
is produced through a process that results in a lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions rate of—​
(i) less than 1.5 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen, and​
(ii) not less than 0.45 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen,​
the applicable percentage shall be 33.4 percent.​
(D) In the case of any qualified clean hydrogen which is produced through a process that results in a lifecycle greenhouse gas emissions rate of less than 0.45 kilograms of CO2e per kilogram of hydrogen, the applicable percentage shall be 100 percent.​
(3) INFLATION ADJUSTMENT.—The $0.60 amount in para- graph (1) shall be adjusted by multiplying such amount by the inflation adjustment factor (as determined under section 45(e)(2), determined by substituting ‘2022’ for ‘1992’ in subparagraph (B) thereof) for the calendar year in which the qualified clean hydrogen is produced. If any amount as increased under the preceding sentence is not a multiple of 0.1 cent, such amount shall be rounded to the nearest multiple of 0.1 cent.​

The maximum incentive of $0.60 isn't very much considering green hydrogen usually costs at least $3/kg and needs to be at more like $1 or less to be competitive. However, it gets multiplied by 5x if your facility meets the eligibility requirements. The requirements are basically that the facility needs to follow basic labor laws like paying workers prevailing wages and having an apprenticeship program for training. So the credit for eligible green hydrogen made in the US is $0.60 * 5 = $3/kg H2.

(e) INCREASED CREDIT AMOUNT FOR QUALIFIED CLEAN
HYDROGEN PRODUCTION FACILITIES.—
(1) IN GENERAL.—In the case of any qualified clean hydrogen production facility which satisfies the requirements of paragraph (2), the amount of the credit determined under subsection (a) with respect to qualified clean hydrogen described in subsection (b)(2) shall be equal to such amount (determined without regard to this sentence) multiplied by 5.​

$3/kg is actually a game-changer, because hydrogen production powered by renewables usually costs around $3.50-$7.00 these days (IEA 2019 data link). If my understanding of this is correct, this credit was set at just the right amount to make many green hydrogen projects solidly competitive with hydrogen from natural gas, which usually costs $1-2/kg. A green hydrogen plant that would cost $4/kg unsubsidized will now be able to sell H2 for $1/kg with the same profit per kg. These direct subsidies for green H2 are in addition to the renewable energy subsidies for solar and wind that reduce the price of the electricity for making green H2.

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles will never be competitive, but we need hydrogen for a lot of other stuff like metallurgy, chemicals, and affordable synthetic fuels, as Drew Baglino mentioned in his interview with Stanford University earlier this year. SpaceX is also going to need green hydrogen as part of their program to make rocket fuel (pure CH4 and O2) from CO2 captured from the atmosphere. Tesla will likely be involved in some way, especially now that Tesla is an electricity provider in Texas and electricity is the majority of the cost of green hydrogen. The theoretical minimum for water electrolysis is 40 kWh of energy required per kg H2. Half a Tesla battery worth of electricity is needed to make one kg of hydrogen.
 
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Before your minds melt down over US politics, consider that many, many companies will be lobbying to keep the Inflation Reduction Act in effect, regardless of who is in power in the USA. When companies make multibillion dollar commitments to things like battery factories, they’re not going to let that go without a fight. Politicians will conveniently change their minds on EVs.
 
Fortune - today:

Elon Musk told Trump to sail into the sunset, now the former President tells supporters it’s time to get rid of electric cars in Pennsylvania rally rant

Excerpt:

At a speech this weekend in the coal-mining town of Wilkes-Barre in Pennsylvania, Trump hinted he would roll back any such subsidies, recounting a story about a friend fed up with driving their EV from Kentucky to Washington, DC, due to all the alleged charging stops.

“He told me (…) ‘please, please let’s get rid of this stuff’,” claimed Trump, adding it allegedly took the person “more time to charge the damn car” than spent driving it.
Sigh.

"... roll back any such subsidies..." is not the same thing as "get rid of electric cars".

Now that electric vehicles have finally become qualitatively and quantitatively a better value for most purposes than the equivalent ICE vehicle, I'd prefer eliminating subsidies altogether and let the ICE manufacturers sink or swim.
 
Sigh.

"... roll back any such subsidies..." is not the same thing as "get rid of electric cars".

Now that electric vehicles have finally become qualitatively and quantitatively a better value for most purposes than the equivalent ICE vehicle, I'd prefer eliminating subsidies altogether and let the ICE manufacturers sink or swim.
Eliminating all subsidies would be great in my opinion, but no one will roll back the entire US navy fleet that effectively helps subsidize oil by ensuring freedom of the seas in certain geographic areas. Or any of the other machines in place to keep the subsidies going. *shrug*
 
Hi All
Wanted a quick answer regarding shipping of our Model 3 cross-country. It will take >6 days and they are picking up tomorrow morning, so trying to figure out best way to do this.

Leave sentry mode on or off?
Valet mode?
Anything else to ensure safety and security of the car?
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: Big Earl
Florida generates only 2.4% of the electricity from solar, that is truly pathetic. Given the quantity
of sunlight it should be above 50%. I suspect Florida power must be rigging the system to disallow
distributive solar generation, anyone have thoughts on this .
As a FPL customer who buys solar power from them,I am puzzled by those figures. FPL has some massive solar fields. They have announced planning for a 2.6 Terawatt battery for backup also. My price for solar power is comparable to conventional. Also, several of my neighbors have solar panels, so I don’t think FPL does much to discourage it.
 
Hi All
Wanted a quick answer regarding shipping of our Model 3 cross-country. It will take >6 days and they are picking up tomorrow morning, so trying to figure out best way to do this.

Leave sentry mode on or off?
Valet mode?
Anything else to ensure safety and security of the car?
I once shipped a Tesla from Hawaii to Florida. Drop off car, hand them fob, don’t worry.