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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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The point I was trying to lead towards was "If you think that will happen, why do you think it hasn't happened already?" The SR M3 is readily available, so Tesla is not likely the limiting factor. Do you think that Hertz or others simply are too busy with adding Teslas to other locations and can't do this one additional location at the same time? Are there other factors in Knoxville which make it fall lower on Hertz's list than the locations where Hertz is adding Teslas to their inventory mix? Or what data might Hertz have about the car rental market that has led them to not put Teslas there (at least yet)?
Not knowing the details of the Knoxville, TN market, the generic scenario has been interesting to think through. Even if Hertz had unlimited capital, turning over a great deal of inventory at once vs on a rolling basis would not generally be wise, so what are some reasons Hertz might prioritize location A over location B for the "next location to offer Teslas"?
  1. Supercharger density: There do not appear to be any Superchargers in downtown Knoxville; there are two within semi-decent distance to the west along I-40, but that's about it. Perhaps Hertz holds off on adding Teslas to their fleet until Tesla has sufficient (in Hertz's opinion) Superchargers in that market? NOTE: This could also be the Hertz EASY-BUTTON - assume A) Tesla has far greater detail r.e. Tesla demand in a market, B) Tesla is using that data to determine where to deploy new Superchargers, and C) assume that Tesla putting Superchargers into a market implies market demand for rental Teslas in that market (not just Superchargers for people driving thru), so perhaps Hertz would be key off of urban, non-freeway Supercharger deployments? Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Urban Supercharger deployment may feed demand for rental agencies to buy Teslas, not just apartment dwellers to buy Teslas.
  2. Tesla share of new vehicle sales in a market: Perhaps Hertz assumes demand for Tesla rental cars in a market corresponds to Tesla's share of new vehicles sales in that same market. This encapsulates two separate factors, local desire for Teslas, as well as desire for cars vs larger trucks. If so, then (for now) one could identify markets with low current Tesla share of new car sales and project that Hertz, et al, are unlikely to add Teslas to their fleets in those markets for some time. Also, in markets where Tesla share of vehicle sales is low because truck sales share is exceptionally high, Hertz might reasonably be waiting for the Cybertruck to become available, with the expectation that adding an EV truck to their fleet in those markets makes more sense than adding EV cars. Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Cybertruck might open significant additional rental agency demand, in markets where truck rentals are in far higher demand than car rentals (such as mountainous terrain, weather / road condition areas, cultural drivers of truck demand, etc).
  3. Competitive pressures: Perhaps Hertz is prioritizing adding Tesla inventory in areas where there is significant competitive rental car pressure, either to "keep up" or as a competitive differentiator. In the Phoenix metro area, for example, there is at least one local company that *only* rents Teslas, and the local Hertz representative I spoke with was part of a pretty massive push of Teslas into their local fleet here. Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Perhaps each time Teslas become available for rent by one company in a market, other rental companies will rapidly follow suit to remain competitive?
Other primary, generalized thoughts? Beyond that, there may well be markets which will be slow to move to Tesla rental cars (either unique, non-electrified demand, which should be a shrinking set of markets, or purely cultural anti-Tesla areas, which also should hopefully be a shrinking set of markets). Perhaps these markets where Tesla rental demand truly is low will become the dumping ground for rental company ICE inventory beyond what they are ready to liquidate on the used vehicle market?
 
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Indeed, something like kids placing playing cards near the spokes of their bicycles to make them sound like motorcycles.
Yeah but we are old farts. Young kids now drive silent electric bikes and young adults drive silent EVs. It won’t take long for the longing for loud cars to die off. The younger generation drives all fads.
 
IMHO, it's juvenile to insist on noise.

The Telegraph - Saturday:
Why the great British sports car is losing the race to go electric

Excerpt:

..“I think that the main thing is the noise,” says Hugo Holder, a 15-year racing enthusiast who owns a Caterham and is a director of the Classic Sports Car Club in Wiltshire.

For many weekend racers or Formula One fans, the roar of the engine elicits a thrill that is hard to match. A barely audible hum from an electric engine simply doesn’t cut it...
Coincidence?

 
A couple of thoughts on the discussion related to Highland Model 3 update, as I’ve seen that as a recurring thread over the past few days with plenty of thoughts about possible higher-trim configurations and impacts on Y demand.

A few possible objectives that I've seen articulated by the group for the Highland update are:
  • Reduce COGS through component choices and manufacturing process changes, to reach further into lower cost / higher volume territory while maintaining positive margin. Starting to implement some early next-gen mfg methods from Investor Day could be a component of this.
  • Update the cosmetic styling and minor user-facing features to maintain the appeal of the car into the future, but without making significant changes to specs.
  • Enhance performance/specs (400mi, Ludicrous, etc.) tangibly to get to higher price/margin configurations or at least maintaining price/margin as volumes increase.
Note that these are not mutually exclusive, and there are possibly additional options that I am not considering here. We know there are styling changes from spy photos, but not the extent or intent of these.

We know that Tesla is targeting ~50% CAGR over a multi-year period from 2020, which would point to annual production volume somewhere in the ballpark of ~2.5M in 2024 and ~3.9M in 2025. My inclination is to be conservative when estimating the volume contributions of Cybertruck in 2024 and Gen 3 in 2025 as those vehicles will likely still be early in their ramps and I believe we would be wise to not count on substantial volumes relative to the scale of Tesla’s auto business until ~2026.

If that is correct, Tesla would lean on Model 3 and Model Y as the primary growth drivers through 2025, and enabling less expensive configurations of Model 3 (and possibly Model Y in turn) is a way to do that. This would point towards the objective of Highland updates to primarily be manufacturing/cost optimization updates, with the styling update included while lines are down and things are changing anyway.

This speculation may be off base, but either way I am keenly interested to see how Tesla manages growth in terms of vehicle mix/specs until Gen 3 is being produced at massive scale.
 
Thoughts on solar and storage...

My home was built in 2018 and I purchased it from another family in 2020. They had around a 12Kw array installed on the roof and its been pretty amazing how much value its added to me personally, but I never actually went through the process of purchasing it other than in the acquisition of my home. For my job (I am an IT engineer) I went on a sales call with a local utility and the person I was talking with said that in our region based off the rates customers pay there is really no scenario where solar was worth the price. We have around $.11/KWh here and he's right, it's too cheap....I happened to find the invoice from the prior owner and they paid just under 50K (before 33% ITC) for the system in 2019. I have a model 3 and a Y today and based off my utilization it would take me just under 12-15 years at our utilization to be at price parity. In the process of this conversation I told the table I have a 12Kw array I inherited from the prior owner and its been great....to which I was asked what it cost and if I had to purchase it myself would I do it all over again....

I had never considered this question in 3 years of owning this home because frankly I dont need to. But I paused much longer than I normally do to these types of questions... I answered that I would do it for two reasons. 1. I like being independent from a regulated monopoly. I hate the power they hold in state government and their commitment to coal and NG. 2. I can say without pause I have done everything I can do to limit my families carbon footprint. My kids are young, they only know what electric cars are like (home charing, super charging, etc). They recognize we have a power plant on our roof and it powers the cars. They love it, and as an engineer I get to explain things to them because they are interested.

TSLA as a stock has me primed to make fun choices in life of doing whatever job I want to do regardless of pay. About a year ago today I signed up at a local community college to take courses to become a residential electrician. I've put in many breakers, circuits, wired my own house, and around a half dozen EV outlets over the last 5 years....I like the work and it's rewarding. In speaking with my instructor my county has DOZENs of open jobs for just the local electrician companies. This is leading to jobs having months long lead times and much higher costs for everything EV outlets, solar, etc. I reached out to the company that did my installation and asked them what my house would cost today to install the same output of solar and it was 60K. But the interesting part is the actual materials portion was 50% lower than when the prior owners put it in. Unless more people see the value in doing hands on work, the goals we as a society have set are going to be impossible to reach.

Ok...I promise I am wrapping this up....

In looking at the new panels we are getting close to 700w/panel in 2024 time range. I have 39 panels over 4 roof sections today. if I had the company use these panels it would be 16 and take up 2 roof sections. So my hope in the coming years is that panel density keeps going up, so less panels needed, less install cost, quicker ROI, etc. We also need LFP batteries to come out cheap enough that even in my state it becomes an asset. In the mean time we need more people to enter the trades ASAP. I wish part of the IRA was some type of school or personal incentive to work in power generation. It's amazing to me that oil roughnecks in Texas routinely make 100K/year and people who run the wires we all depend on make 18-25/hour....or roughly the same as a fork lift driver at Home Dept. Also electricians have to work as an apprentice for 4 years. So even if I wanted to make a life change I have to commit 800 hours of my life to become a journeyman and start my own company......necessary, but crazy.

Happy mothers day.
My 16.3 Kw solar installed in PA by Tesla in 2021 cost $33,000 before tax credits. $23,000 after.
 
Well, it might also be considered juvenile to race cars in the first place. 🤷🏻‍ But if the noise is the hold back, just program the car to make noise.
Or, just provide such a driver with headphones and their favorite engine noise soundtrack synced to the car's vitals.

Much like with the shunning of cigarette smoke in public places, noisy cars do not have to be imposed upon everyone any more than the guy with the subwoofer in the next lane while sitting at the light.

With some headphones both the noisy car guy and the loud music guy can have that experience.
 
Thoughts on solar and storage...
I reached out to the company that did my installation and asked them what my house would cost today to install the same output of solar and it was 60K.
A 12.325 kW system from Tesla is only $27,362, BEFORE incentives! That's why it pays to get multiple quotes. Too many installers still quoting $60,000 systems.
 
A couple weeks ago I mentioned we were getting disillusioned with Ford stock, and we were considering selling some of it to buy TSLA.

Friday we got a start. Karen had about $7,500 in Ford in her IRA that we sold. After a long hold, we were actually up a tiny bit - about $300. That got us 43 TSLA shares. Unfortunately our market order executed at close to Friday’s high, but in the long run that matters little.

We still have some more Ford we may sell. We’re still deciding when to pull the trigger - because we really want Ford to do well.
 
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depending on your definition of widely available I would disagree heartily.

I'm in Knoxville TN, a metro area with about 1M people, not terribly rural. No Teslas at Hertz within hundreds of miles of me.

In fact the search engine for Hertz only searches 50 miles away and says they don't have any polestars here either.

But I can rent several Tesla's on Turo here.
By me in Maryland I can get a model Y at Hertz for $40 a day if I go to the airport…. On Turo I can get an assortment of nine year old vehicles for that price or a Tesla for $88. Interesting they have a ford lightning for $89. There used to be a lot more cars on Turo but not anymore.
 
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If anything is going to Osborne Y sales I think it would be people waiting for HW 4.0 and the 48V architecture to be used first in Cybertruck. For me personally I'm waiting for those two things before upgrading my Y.

I really want an X, but it's hard for me to justify spending so much more for pretty much the same car in terms of range and FSD. On the other hand, if Tesla announced the X with a range of 450+ miles, I'd drop my Y today and get an X (assuming they didn't also announce a Y with similar range).

I don't know if this true or not because the story "broke" with Roto-Reuters and their "three people with knowledge of the plan" "who asked not to be identified," but it's been reported recently that Project Juniper is the name for the next major Y refresh, to begin around October 2024.
It’s pretty amazing to think that all the vehicles Tesla has cranked out in the last couple of years, and are producing right now will not have a path to upgrade to HW4.
 
This would point towards the objective of Highland updates to primarily be manufacturing/cost optimization updates, with the styling update included while lines are down and things are changing anyway.
That is exactly how I see it.

Whenever an update to a Tesla model is announced / rumoured there is constant speculation about all sorts of improvements, more range, faster charging, faster acceleration, more luxury. Often the aim is to make the cars cheaper.

Tesla is increasingly keeping updates as secret as possible, because a combination of speculation and imagination can create an "Osborne Effect" that isn't justified by the actual update. Sure the car will be improved, but not at the expense of additional cost.

Any drivetrain efficiency improvements are more likely to result in a smaller battery pack, not more range.

The styling updates in Highland might be an improvement, but reduce cost is also an aim in that area. I doubt that we would get a styling improvement that increased cost.
 
Not knowing the details of the Knoxville, TN market, the generic scenario has been interesting to think through. Even if Hertz had unlimited capital, turning over a great deal of inventory at once vs on a rolling basis would not generally be wise, so what are some reasons Hertz might prioritize location A over location B for the "next location to offer Teslas"?
  1. Supercharger density: There do not appear to be any Superchargers in downtown Knoxville; there are two within semi-decent distance to the west along I-40, but that's about it. Perhaps Hertz holds off on adding Teslas to their fleet until Tesla has sufficient (in Hertz's opinion) Superchargers in that market? NOTE: This could also be the Hertz EASY-BUTTON - assume A) Tesla has far greater detail r.e. Tesla demand in a market, B) Tesla is using that data to determine where to deploy new Superchargers, and C) assume that Tesla putting Superchargers into a market implies market demand for rental Teslas in that market (not just Superchargers for people driving thru), so perhaps Hertz would be key off of urban, non-freeway Supercharger deployments? Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Urban Supercharger deployment may feed demand for rental agencies to buy Teslas, not just apartment dwellers to buy Teslas.
  2. Tesla share of new vehicle sales in a market: Perhaps Hertz assumes demand for Tesla rental cars in a market corresponds to Tesla's share of new vehicles sales in that same market. This encapsulates two separate factors, local desire for Teslas, as well as desire for cars vs larger trucks. If so, then (for now) one could identify markets with low current Tesla share of new car sales and project that Hertz, et al, are unlikely to add Teslas to their fleets in those markets for some time. Also, in markets where Tesla share of vehicle sales is low because truck sales share is exceptionally high, Hertz might reasonably be waiting for the Cybertruck to become available, with the expectation that adding an EV truck to their fleet in those markets makes more sense than adding EV cars. Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Cybertruck might open significant additional rental agency demand, in markets where truck rentals are in far higher demand than car rentals (such as mountainous terrain, weather / road condition areas, cultural drivers of truck demand, etc).
  3. Competitive pressures: Perhaps Hertz is prioritizing adding Tesla inventory in areas where there is significant competitive rental car pressure, either to "keep up" or as a competitive differentiator. In the Phoenix metro area, for example, there is at least one local company that *only* rents Teslas, and the local Hertz representative I spoke with was part of a pretty massive push of Teslas into their local fleet here. Implication for Tesla and TSLA investors: Perhaps each time Teslas become available for rent by one company in a market, other rental companies will rapidly follow suit to remain competitive?
Other primary, generalized thoughts? Beyond that, there may well be markets which will be slow to move to Tesla rental cars (either unique, non-electrified demand, which should be a shrinking set of markets, or purely cultural anti-Tesla areas, which also should hopefully be a shrinking set of markets). Perhaps these markets where Tesla rental demand truly is low will become the dumping ground for rental company ICE inventory beyond what they are ready to liquidate on the used vehicle market?
One issue about Knoxville, specifically the airport. Knoxville is not a heavy "destination city", not that large, not a lot of tourist areas. But it is a jump-off point for vacationers visiting the Smokey Mountains (GSMNP is the most-visited NP in the country IIRC). There is a Supercharger in the tourist hell of Pigeon Forge/Gatlinburg, but a great many visitors avoid those crowded, tacky tourist hot spots. There are beautiful areas of the park away from those locations, and a lot of great country to explore nearby....but very, very few SCs. Want to go drive the Foothills Parkway, the Tail of the Dragon and Cherahola Skyway? Maybe run the Rattler, the Moonshiner 28, or the Blue Ridge Parkway? No SCs. Cumberland Gap area? Same. You're either going to Asheville, NC or up to Bristol, both well out of the way for those touring the area. Can you get around the area with a Tesla? Sure, especially if you find a place with destination charging and don't plan to go too far each day. But many people on vacation may not choose to plan their vacation around their car. Until EV charging stations become as common as gas pumps, this is a valid concern for many drivers, especially those outside of major metro/suburban areas. I have no doubt that day will come-but today isn't that day for a great many people. The entire country isn't the San Francisco area where you have a SC every few miles. In much of the country you'll be well over 100 miles from one. Which, if you're on the interstate passing through isn't much of an issue. If you live off the beaten path or visit there, it is.

My old stomping ground was North Idaho. We had a SC in Coeur d'Alene, not far from where I lived. If I wanted to drive down to Boise (380 miles), I'd take highway 95-the ONLY N-S route through the state. Without a single SC between those cities. Only alternative would be to go way out of the way through WA on interstate. But you're adding 80 miles to the route, and miss some of the nicer driving in the country. And neither of the two areas I've described are exactly remote.

Not an issue long-term, the SC network will continue to be built out. I've made this case before-when the Model T was introduced, there wasn't a gas station on every corner, and "early adopters" had to sometimes be creative with fueling (let alone roads!). But that changed quickly-as EV charging will. By 2035-2040 I suspect it will be a non-issue in most any part of the country, and perhaps considerably sooner. But today, it's a valid concern.
 
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