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Home HVAC is much less complex than their vehicle system integration so I'm not clear on any Tesla specific advantages over existing technology. A home doesn't have traction motors and multiple sources of heat to connect to and manage. I don't see coolant lines running to your fridge, computers, TV, etc.
Seriously? I think home HVAC is much more complex. Sources of heat include the sun, the interior air, the refrigerator and freezer, the cooktop and oven and toaster, the dryer, the dishwasher, the water heater(s). Capturing waste heat from these would improve efficiency greatly. Then there's all the places where heat is needed. And this is off the top of my head, so I'm sure I've missed a bunch.

Figure in a pool or a jacuzzi and it gets much more complicated. And you have to deal with far more distance issues.

Weekend talk.
 
If you have a USB drive installed for sentry mode, clean it out. Per the FSD thread, this may actually be causing some problems with FSD computer response times. Not confirmed, but has been reported. I'm still waiting on 11.4.2, so can't comment on the drives yet, but 11.3 has been very good here in SoCal.
Saw that - will try. But for a long time I didn’t even have USB installed and didn’t find any difference after I did.

Getting back to original question of when will WS recognize FSD as viable … we need some concrete action from Tesla
- drop the beta
- make highway portion L3 and take liability for crashes
- show actual improvements in quality metrics, like disengagement rate. What is the target rate for driverless, what is the current rate and what is the rate of improvement
- start driverless testing. They can definitely start AV testing with safety drivers like many others have done and publish stats in a particular geographic area
….
 
Saw that - will try. But for a long time I didn’t even have USB installed and didn’t find any difference after I did.

Getting back to original question of when will WS recognize FSD as viable … we need some concrete action from Tesla
- drop the beta
- make highway portion L3 and take liability for crashes
- show actual improvements in quality metrics, like disengagement rate. What is the target rate for driverless, what is the current rate and what is the rate of improvement
- start driverless testing
….
- have more people want to buy it
 
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Seriously? I think home HVAC is much more complex. Sources of heat include the sun, the interior air, the refrigerator and freezer, the cooktop and oven and toaster, the dryer, the dishwasher, the water heater(s). Capturing waste heat from these would improve efficiency greatly. Then there's all the places where heat is needed. And this is off the top of my head, so I'm sure I've missed a bunch.

Figure in a pool or a jacuzzi and it gets much more complicated. And you have to deal with far more distance issues.

Weekend talk.
Seriously. Almost everything you mention is using the heat, you don't want to extract the heat from the cooktop, oven, toaster, dryer, water heater, etc. because they are creating heat for a purpose. Water cooling your toaster makes no sense, and as I stated you don't have cooling lines running all over your house. Any excess heat radiated from appliances simply goes to heat the house a small amount.
 
Pretty nice video from Chuck estimating how far the side cameras are seeing, 120 to 190 m vs the 80 m on Tesla website

I find it pretty impressive for such a low resolution, I imagine if HW4 indeed has higher resolution cameras, which tests so far have showed they do, the upper ceiling of what can be achieved in the future has been raised quite a bit

Doesn't mean we will see it improve soon

 
Seriously. Almost everything you mention is using the heat, you don't want to extract the heat from the cooktop, oven, toaster, dryer, water heater, etc. because they are creating heat for a purpose. Water cooling your toaster makes no sense, and as I stated you don't have cooling lines running all over your house. Any excess heat radiated from appliances simply goes to heat the house a small amount.
Yes, many of those things use heat, and thus they need to be part of the system, getting waste heat from other sources. But they also produce a bunch of waste heat, and since they already have to be hooked up they can contribute it to the system. It's about efficiency. And it's way more complicated than in a car. Many of the uses of heat/cold are discretionary as to scheduling, so there are far more degrees of freedom too.
 
Yes, many of those things use heat, and thus they need to be part of the system, getting waste heat from other sources. But they also produce a bunch of waste heat, and since they already have to be hooked up they can contribute it to the system. It's about efficiency. And it's way more complicated than in a car. Many of the uses of heat/cold are discretionary as to scheduling, so there are far more degrees of freedom too.
Ok, how are you going to capture the waste heat from your toaster, what are you going to do with that heat, how are you going to move it, and how much of it will be left by the time you move it somewhere else and at what expense? Really think it through and you'll find it makes no sense.
 
Ok, how are you going to capture the waste heat from your toaster, what are you going to do with that heat, how are you going to move it, and how much of it will be left by the time you move it somewhere else and at what expense? Really think it through and you'll find it makes no sense.
Heat from a toaster? Well make toast of course😁. A little humor on memorial day.
 
Ok, how are you going to capture the waste heat from your toaster, what are you going to do with that heat, how are you going to move it, and how much of it will be left by the time you move it somewhere else and at what expense? Really think it through and you'll find it makes no sense.
Beats me. Obviously, it's complicated. Exactly my point. I objected when you wrote "Home HVAC is much less complex than their vehicle system integration". I think it's much more complex. Seems to me, so do you.
 

John Kelly, professor of automotive technology at Weber State University, breaks down the Tesla thermal management system. Similar to content from Munro Live or Ingineerix. Technical, but also clearly explained and you don't need to be an engineer to understand most of it. This is the first video I've seen of someone showing the full assembly of the supermanifold and octovalve and how they connect to all the other heat sources and sinks around the vehicle.

He concludes that the system is very impressive and explains why it compares favorably to competitors' thermal management systems. Same reasons we already knew:

  • It eliminates inefficient resistive heating by instead borrowing thermal energy from ambient air outside the car
  • In extreme cold weather, the vehicle software intentionally runs the motor(s), inverters, and air conditioning compressor in lossy mode, so a resistive heater isn't even needed
  • Vehicle doesn't just waste heat from components like the FSD computer but instead transfers it to something else like the cabin
  • Minimal hoses
  • Compact, lightweight
  • Same module works for all Tesla vehicles

Do you see this heat pump technology being scalable for home HVAC use, given that their auto heatpumps are driven directly off the vehicle's 400v DC traction pack?

Home HVAC is much less complex than their vehicle system integration so I'm not clear on any Tesla specific advantages over existing technology. A home doesn't have traction motors and multiple sources of heat to connect to and manage. I don't see coolant lines running to your fridge, computers, TV, etc.
tl;dr: Tesla‘s heat pump is a marvel imho.

This video was already shared a few days ago (#414’629), but I found only today time to watch it. I looked into installing a heat pump system last year for my house and ended with an offer for CHF 60‘000 = 60’000 USD including installation. Clearly the demand for heat pump was very strong at this time. I decided to not install a heat pump now, despite being legally obliged to install a new heating system within 8 years.

After presentation of master plan 3, I was thinking a bit about how a conventional heat pump system could be improved to increase adoption (if somebody is interested in this topic, please DM me, I won‘t share my ideas here). For that I looked a bit into how conventional heat pumps are designed.

From my analysis, I identified following hurdles for a greater adoption of today’s residental heat pump systems:
- they require a lot of space, so you need to think about where to put them.
- the retrofitting of the piping required for the heat pump system is complex.
- heat pumps are noisy (about 60 dB) which requires permitting to prevent annoying of the neighbours. Reason No 1 for the noise is the compressor and reason No 2 is the fan.
- they also generate vibrations, which complicates the installation since you don‘t want to feel these vibrations in your house.
- the maximal power draw is higher than the standard 230V x 10 A, which means often the electrical panel needs an adjustment and in my case I would end up installing a new electrical panel. A reason for the high max. power draw is the high start-up current, an other the additional resistive heater.
- I wanted to install a heat pump system which is able not only to heat the house but also to chill the house a few degrees in summer by pumping the cooling water a bit warmer than the temperature of the dew point (to prevent condensation of air humidity). My installer refused to install such a system despite in my opinion it would be very easy to implement.

Now Teslas heat pump system is much better than I have expected.
- The generated heat is not specified in the video, but is higher than 6 kW. It may be 7.5 kWh. With this power, you could theorecitally heat a modern, good insulated house. By installing two of these heat pumps you could already heat the great majority of the houses.
- In the video a Coefficient of Performance (COP value) of 5.6 was mentioned. Typical residential heat pump systems have COP-values of between 3 and 4. This means Tesla’s heat pump is 20-30 % more efficient than an average heat pump. One reason seems to be that Tesla uses all available heating sources, 16 in total, as a heat source (different sources of waste heat for example).
- The scroll compressor uses 3x 16 V x 15 A which could be managed by a standard electrical supply in Europe => less electrical work required. By the way, this is a part which will benefit from a future 48 V supply like the cybertruck will have.
- Tesla got rid of the resistive heater which is typically used for very low temperatures and in residential systems during failures to prevent freezing of the cooling water. In a heat pump system, which also heates the warm water of the house, the resistive heater is also used to heat the water from about 50°C to 60°C because conventional heat pumps are not considered being efficient over this temperature difference from 10°C to 60°C, so the heat pump only heats until 50°C. I am not so sure if this is resistive heater (typical power is 6 kW) is really required for this case.
- I don‘t own a Tesla car yet, but I am interested to know the noise a Tesla generates in the outside of the car when A/C is on.
- Tesla uses pressure sensors which also measure the temperature which lowers the amount of requres parts and cabling etc.
- Tesla uses low cost materials such as aluminium while residential heat pump system often use copper. Clearly, Teslas heat pump is optimized for automated mass production.
- Also very important is the amount of refrigerant required, since it has a global warming impact. Concentional residental heat pumps require about 2.5 - 3.5 kg. I would estimate Teslas solution uses 0.5 - 1 kg. I was not able to find any information about this.

If Tesla decides to enter the market for residental heat pumps, they will be competitive.
 
Saw that - will try. But for a long time I didn’t even have USB installed and didn’t find any difference after I did.

Getting back to original question of when will WS recognize FSD as viable … we need some concrete action from Tesla
- drop the beta
- make highway portion L3 and take liability for crashes
- show actual improvements in quality metrics, like disengagement rate. What is the target rate for driverless, what is the current rate and what is the rate of improvement
- start driverless testing. They can definitely start AV testing with safety drivers like many others have done and publish stats in a particular geographic area
….
No, WS will start pricing in FSD when it comes through in the financials. All the stuff you listed doesn't make money but increase liability. No one actually cares about FSD or Robotaxies until we see real revenue with a positive operating margin from them. Before than it's all just theoretical.

Based on how Waymo and cruise are operating, Robotaxi is definitely not this infinite money printer people think it is. So until we start seeing not only revenue but a step change in reduction in Robotaxi operating cost while also reducing the ASP of robotaxi miles from 2 dollars/mile down to 50 cents/mile(to be competitive vs normal people with cars), Tesla will not get any major valuation boost. It's a long road ahead even if FSD works as intended.
 
No, WS will start pricing in FSD when it comes through in the financials. All the stuff you listed doesn't make money but increase liability. No one actually cares about FSD or Robotaxies until we see real revenue with a positive operating margin from them. Before than it's all just theoretical.

Based on how Waymo and cruise are operating, Robotaxi is definitely not this infinite money printer people think it is. So until we start seeing not only revenue but a step change in reduction in Robotaxi operating cost while also reducing the ASP of robotaxi miles from 2 dollars/mile down to 50 cents/mile(to be competitive vs normal people with cars), Tesla will not get any major valuation boost. It's a long road ahead even if FSD works as intended.
Robotaxi is not the only thing - before robotaxi is the FSD take rate. That will definitely increase once FSD is more useful and will be considered by WS. But more importantly, many of these will indicate FSD is not just snake oil that Elon claims will be finished every year for the past 5 years. At least some analysts will start including robotaxi revenues in their 5 year estimates.
 
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Robotaxi is not the only thing - before robotaxi is the FSD take rate. That will definitely increase once FSD is more useful and will be considered by WS. But more importantly, many of these will indicate FSD is not just snake oil that Elon claims will be finished every year for the past 5 years. At least some analysts will start including robotaxi revenues in their 5 year estimates.
Currently any forecasted robotaxi revenue is uncertain if it's actually good revenue or revenue with too many strings attached. Uber struggles to make money using humans when it's just an app, and Waymo is struggling making money without humans. Will Tesla finally crack the code and actually make a net income on that revenue as they commoditize the asp even further than today? You can't deny that Tesla has all the ingredients to give this the best chance(ie cheap hardware, no geo fencing)

Og taxi service made money because they charge like 4 dollars a mile, however there's a cap on it's revenue when car ownership cost about 50 cents a mile. Tesla robotaxi in Musk's mind is suppose to be the only form of transportation, which means it needs to be as competative as 50 cents a mile and scaled large enough for people to give up their cars. So will Tesla make money on 50 cents a mile? Who knows, theoretically yes but Waymo/Uber are struggling making a net income on 2 dollars/mile.
 
Robotaxi is not the only thing - before robotaxi is the FSD take rate. That will definitely increase once FSD is more useful and will be considered by WS. But more importantly, many of these will indicate FSD is not just snake oil that Elon claims will be finished every year for the past 5 years. At least some analysts will start including robotaxi revenues in their 5 year estimates.
Maybe, but other than some minor improvents FSD still makes most of the same mistakes it made a year ago.

And the major street extension and highway intersection change that was done just down from our neighbourhood 5 years ago still doesn’t show on their maps. Every time I come home from our trailer storage place the Nav shows me levitating thru a half mile of swamp, so they are obviously still using 6 year old maps for our area which would probably explain a bunch of other major fails it makes every drive.

My point is if I were a bean counter I wouldn’t count on achieving any sort of hands feee level 4 autonomy for years yet. Not a popular sentiment here but that’s jmho.
 
Home HVAC is much less complex than their vehicle system integration so I'm not clear on any Tesla specific advantages over existing technology. A home doesn't have traction motors and multiple sources of heat to connect to and manage. I don't see coolant lines running to your fridge, computers, TV, etc.
I agree. The main reasons Tesla's vehicle thermal management beats the competition so much are 1) it's taking heat from where it isn't needed to where it is needed in an integrated fashion and 2) it's small and light. Neither of these advantages matter as much in a house. Energy efficiency is paramount in an EV and every 1% improvement makes a significant difference to the customer and to cost. In a home, it's not as important.

It remains to be seen what Tesla's innovation in the home HVAC space might be, beyond just what Elon has already mentioned, in that houses should at least be connected to your car to have an idea of when they should adjust the temperature based on when you're actually there and when you're going to be arriving home. If I remember correctly, he talked about this briefly on one of his Joe Rogan Experience interviews.

My personal suspicion remains that the manufacturing aspect actually might be the major long-term advancement. I believe this mainly because Elon has frequently said manufacturing will be Tesla's long-term competitive advantage and because he mysteriously bought a Boxabl Casita prototype last year that's in his backyard in Starbase. It's strange that despite rampant intrigue and rumors about this, he took about a year to finally admit to the purchase in public and in doing so he really didn't explain why he insisted on being the first customer for this unproven startup company by buying a prototype unit that actually wasn't even up for sale. Additionally, Boxabl leaders have stated that they couldn't directly address the rumors until Elon himself did, because they were under a non-disclosure agreement. Why did there need to be an NDA? Why did Elon want a Casita in the first place? There were at least a hundred other established companies that could've provided a backyard guest unit for him but he picked Boxabl. If the Tesla HVAC system can be designed for industrial assembly and installation for Boxabl units (or something else like it), that could cut out a lot of cost inefficiencies. I think the same applies to Solar Roof, Powerwall and vehicle chargers. These products all cost much more than they should, fundamentally because they are not installed and inspected in a proper industrial mass assembly line. Moreover, a great HVAC system should be well integrated with the design of the house rather than tacked on as an afterthought, which further strengthens the case for Tesla partnering with another company that actually designs the houses. Maybe I'm reading into this too much, but if so then it's quite a strange coincidence.
 
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tl;dr: Tesla‘s heat pump is a marvel imho.

This video was already shared a few days ago (#414’629), but I found only today time to watch it. I looked into installing a heat pump system last year for my house and ended with an offer for CHF 60‘000 = 60’000 USD including installation. Clearly the demand for heat pump was very strong at this time. I decided to not install a heat pump now, despite being legally obliged to install a new heating system within 8 years.

After presentation of master plan 3, I was thinking a bit about how a conventional heat pump system could be improved to increase adoption (if somebody is interested in this topic, please DM me, I won‘t share my ideas here). For that I looked a bit into how conventional heat pumps are designed.

From my analysis, I identified following hurdles for a greater adoption of today’s residental heat pump systems:
- they require a lot of space, so you need to think about where to put them.
- the retrofitting of the piping required for the heat pump system is complex.
- heat pumps are noisy (about 60 dB) which requires permitting to prevent annoying of the neighbours. Reason No 1 for the noise is the compressor and reason No 2 is the fan.
- they also generate vibrations, which complicates the installation since you don‘t want to feel these vibrations in your house.
- the maximal power draw is higher than the standard 230V x 10 A, which means often the electrical panel needs an adjustment and in my case I would end up installing a new electrical panel. A reason for the high max. power draw is the high start-up current, an other the additional resistive heater.
- I wanted to install a heat pump system which is able not only to heat the house but also to chill the house a few degrees in summer by pumping the cooling water a bit warmer than the temperature of the dew point (to prevent condensation of air humidity). My installer refused to install such a system despite in my opinion it would be very easy to implement.

Several of these "hurdles" are weird to me, as a Texan.

Perhaps in EU (and in older areas of North America, to be fair) you are looking at heat pumps to replace traditional heat sources for heating water for use in radiators, in floor heating, and such, rather than heating the air that flows through the central AC system.

For those of us with a central AC system, with ducting all over the place, we already have our heating and cooling systems intermixed, with regular AC systems having an evaporator either just before or after whatever the heat source is (i.e. electric resistive, natural gas). So switching to a heat pump involves replacing the AC system, and if you don't replace the furnace/blower unit, you also slave the old furnace to the heat pump for "emergency heat".

Many already have heat pump systems for heat, from when their house was built (or when they last replaced the entire heating/cooling system) in which there is likely still a resistive heat element as "emergency" heat (for faster warm up and/or if the outside temp drops below operating conditions for the heat pump), and the evaporator and condensor basically switch roles as the AC system runs in "reverse" to pump heat from the outside in, rather than outside in. AC systems are, after all, heat pumps - just traditionally one directional. "Heat pumps" are generally bidirectional heat pumps (or at least, one directional, but switchable, depending on how you want to define it).

So complaints about noise (we already have noisy outside compressors for cooling), space (it takes up the same space, more or less), piping (might sometimes require a change but usually can get away with the same piping, and even then most such houses aren't that hard to change out the refridgerant piping for), vibrations (our outside compressors/condensor/fan units are usually installed on concrete pads, sometimes with extra padding between the pad and the unit, which is typically separate from the house slab or other foundation support), and power draw (we already have high power connections for the AC, we're just running in reverse, so it's the same power more or less), sound weird from my perspective.

However, if you're in an area that never uses central AC, with at most quieter mini-splits or possibly nothing, and primarily needs heating, then that's certainly some potential for disruption I suppose, if you can solve the pain points for buildings that never had central AC. I'm not sure that Tesla has anything other than a willingness to engineer new solutions as an advantage, though, since they're not really inventing anything new, just packaging it smarter, with regards to heat pumps.

Other than as yet another premium expensive thing they can sell to higher end homeowners (i.e. like power wall and solar roof), I don't see much of a market for a Tesla branded central air system in competition with traditional central AC.

Perhaps they might be able to come up with a new way of doing things as a replacement for non-central air systems that use heated water or such to transport heat, but the way everything would scale up, to support a house sized load, and the lack of alternative heat sources to scavenge (even if you could scavenge heat from the stove or whatever, that's not useful to the stove's operation, and if the purpose is heating, then it's already helping heat it's immediate vicinity).

I suspect for that scenario, at best, they might provide a premium outdoor unit that is quieter than the competition, and possibly a bit smaller or at least packaged differently (i.e. a tall rectangle rather than a large cube), to address the concerns you listed as being problems for getting one in your locality. Assuming they intended to re-use their existing designs, by going from AC to HVDC to drive ~400V heat pumps (but upscaled), you'd be adding extra inefficiencies in the conversion from AC to DC, so the HVDC compressor would need to be more efficient than a traditional one run from AC. Perhaps the efficiency might be gained as the average over time, by being able to run at different speeds.

But I do think you've raised an interesting point of discussion - we don't all think of the same thing when we think of heat pumps and heating (or cooling) a building. Some of us expect central air, and a heat pump is just a fancy AC unit that can run backwards, and other than the cost to install the unit there's no material difference between them. Others, such as yourself, clearly have a different expectation, whether due to being a different climate, different local regulations, or so on. So there may be different markets better suited to different solutions, and thus a potential Tesla system (or systems, to address different markets), will have different competitive advantages (or lack there of) depending on what they're competing against, and trying to achieve.

When we discuss these things, we probably need to be clear as to what type of system we're envisioning, or half of us are going to think the other half are nuts and vice versa. :D
 
Home HVAC is much less complex than their vehicle system integration so I'm not clear on any Tesla specific advantages over existing technology. A home doesn't have traction motors and multiple sources of heat to connect to and manage. I don't see coolant lines running to your fridge, computers, TV, etc.
I'm sure you are correct in regard to computers and TV, they will become more and more efficient.
But the fridge? It is a reversed heat pump and it doesn't run continuously 24/7. Why not use it for other devices? Maybe it can be used for the hot water of the dish washer and the washing machine when it's not cooling? Not so much plumping necessary and soon you got less pumps or have inefficient resistance heaters replaced.
The kitchen has an increasing no. of other energy consumption machines that could be connected/combined and in this way disrupt another well established and less innovative industrial sector.