Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Sawyer does exaggerate. But the savings are real for a large class of people. In California alone,
there are extra local utility rebates for charging equipment, the "cash for clunkers" program to
retire old cars for an extra $1.5K, and certain CA zip codes are considered "disadvantaged areas"
for extra credit, to balance out things for the sake of climate justice impact.

There are state tax considerations as well, as you've noted with Oregon which has a 4+% sales tax advantage
over CA, at least, as do many other states, both red and blue. Yup, there are "success disasters" as you
note when the program money runs out.

Lastly, a personal note from a possibly larger class of Tesla purchasers -- retirees (early, such as myself,
or otherwise). Many of us can "tune" our income with capital gains to get under the income limits
in one year for rebates, an then declare more income the next. I bought a 2018 Model 3 that way,
whereby the 7.5K fed rebate + 2.5k CA rebate + $800 electric utility rebate + $5K FSD sale price
including HW 2.5 -> 3 upgrade really paid off. The opportunistic windows may be narrow, but
they can work out well for the observant.

It still ignores when and how taxes apply, which means that any suggestion you can get the car for price - fed - state is incorrect.
You need the pre-credit money up front, and you don't get the full value of the credits in the "effective" price.
For example, in California, you pay sales tax on the original price, plus property tax on the purchase price.

 

[loquitur]

It still ignores when and how taxes apply, which means that any suggestion you can get the car for price - fed - state is incorrect.
You need the pre-credit money up front, and you don't get the full value of the credits in the "effective" price.
For example, in California, you pay sales tax on the original price, plus property tax on the purchase price.

Point well-taken, so adjust for U.S. state sales tax/prop tax by state, and publish the corrections!
I bet it still bodes well vs. avg/median new car price for ICE vehicles which don't get rebates.

Further, U.S. tax considerations for purchases this year (rebated next year) are finessed in 2024
due to point-of-sale rebate. Notwithstanding lease arrangements, which are above my "pay grade".

 

[hobbes]

Referrals increase for S and X:

Referral-Upgrade: Tesla vervielfacht weltweit Gutschriften für Kauf von Model S und Model X

Nach der Neueinführung des Referral-Programms hat Tesla die Prämien bei Model S und Model X vervielfacht – in den USA und Asien mit Rabatten.

teslamag-de.translate.goog

 

[Buckminster]

Before we start talking about heat pumps, I wanted to draw your attention to Apple unveiling their VR/AR headset on Monday. VR and Robotaxis go together like steel and WD40. Some here will deny VRs truth and say nobody will adopt it. Non believers think robotaxis will never happen. Others will say Neuralink is the future. I am confident that ahead of Neuralink, there will be many years where 50% of folk riding Robotaxis will use headsets regularly. Elon may be well positioned as the vehicles are not full of large screens and X app will surely be able to transition well - thoughts here:
Future Tesla UI Integrations

Apple VR more general thread here:
Tesla VR / AR

Other threads of the day:
UK FSD Discussion
EV and Battery Credits M3 now eligible plus not all batteries need to be made in US
Artificial Intelligence Some nice new videos

 

[cusetownusa]

I'll use PA as an example. PA has a $2million allotted to EV credit, including plug-in hybrids, BEVs, motorcycles, etc. Best case scenario enough for a total of 1000 cars statewide. Realistically, enough for about 500 cars. Good luck getting it.

Even if you were fortunate enough to get a credit, it's a $54K income limit to get only $2k credit. Once again, a $54K income owes nowhere near $7500 in federal taxes.

This list by Sawyer is dead wrong. Just dead wrong. Dead wrong.

Not sure about other states but I think the NY one is correct after factoring in all rebates.

If it is correct, then a current inventory Model 3 RWD for $28k is a crazy good deal and value.

 

[phantasms]

Tesla “dealer” in Mt.Kisco NY had an Ultra Red Model X in the center. The past couple days nothing has been on the floor. Something coming soon?

 

[UkNorthampton]

Nice rant from RethinkX (2nd June 2023, hopefully not posted before, couldn't find it on a quick search) - implications for Tesla are that Tesla's mission will progress faster than most investors, politicians or scientists expect. This reinforces to me, that Tesla benefits most from being ready for huge scaling rather than cutting investment as some companies may choose to do.

Basically makes fun of conventional fossil/renewable energy predictions and also says why scientists should ignore actors with bad track records, adopt expectations that new technologies are going to shake things up and so must be incorporated into predictions. Renewable energy, energy storage, Electric Vehicles, Precision Fermentation, Artificial Intelligence etc. Explicitly mentions fossil fuel misinformation/disinformation and even mentions companies by name, but not details.

"In Episode 5 of our ‘Brighter’ series, RethinkX Director of Research Adam Dorr describes why understanding technology disruptions is so important and how "the world's most authoritative sources" of energy projections have gotten things so wrong, and why it matters for the future of the environment and climate change.

Adam’s book, ‘Brighter: Optimism, Progress, and the Future of Environmentalism” is available on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BNYC1GWY and as an audiobook on Amazon, Audible, and iTunes."

 

[willow_hiller]

Referrals increase for S and X:

Referral-Upgrade: Tesla vervielfacht weltweit Gutschriften für Kauf von Model S und Model X

Nach der Neueinführung des Referral-Programms hat Tesla die Prämien bei Model S und Model X vervielfacht – in den USA und Asien mit Rabatten.

teslamag-de.translate.goog

Including a free three-month trial of FSD, when you purchase with a referral code. So maybe Elon thought v11.4.2 was smooth enough after all!

 

[jerry33]

Including a free three-month trial of FSD, when you purchase with a referral code. So maybe Elon thought v11.4.2 was smooth enough after all!

Presumably whoever did the referral will explain about FSD and how it works. Not the same as “Just try it on your own with no guidance”.

 

[JRP3]

VR and Robotaxis go together like steel and WD40.

How so?

 

[Buckminster]

How so?

In a robotaxi you have nothing to do other than read, game, surf the internet or watch TV. Apple's 2 x 4k screens one inch from your eyeballs (it is much more pleasant than it sounds for those that haven't tried) will be the best for all four. You also have a ready supply of power.

 

[Artful Dodger]

I'll use PA as an example. PA has a $2million allotted to EV credit, including plug-in hybrids, BEVs, motorcycles, etc. Best case scenario enough for a total of 1000 cars statewide. Realistically, enough for about 500 cars. Good luck getting it.

Even if you were fortunate enough to get a credit, it's a $54K income limit to get only $2k credit. Once again, a $54K income owes nowhere near $7500 in federal taxes.

This list by Sawyer is dead wrong. Just dead wrong. Dead wrong.

I think you overstate your case. I think that Americans who have accumulated funds in a tax-deferred account could trigger a 1-time tax event for more than $7,500 possibly by withdrawing as little as the amount needed to pay for the car itself. This makes the Tax Credit a DOUBLE-DEMAND Lever.

Then there's the leasing approach, where the leasor gets the full $7,500 IRA credit but the leasee gets a reduced monthly payment. Lot's of ways to skin this tax cat.

Paging @mongo for another opinion.

Cheers!

 

[FSDtester#1]

$10 Billion dollar bet that if this was a Tesla, it would be Global news.
Note, not once in the article do they mention the manufacturer or model.
Not even in the caption under the photos or video.
Ironically, one of the video clips was provided to the police came from Teslacam of a nearby Tesla. Correct, that wasn't mentioned either.
The children made it out alive thankfully.


Florida woman was shoplifting when her car with 2 children inside burst into flames, police say

Florida woman was shoplifting when her car with 2 children inside burst into flames, police say

A Florida woman left two children in a car that burst into flames while she was shoplifting inside a retail store, police said.

www.foxnews.com

 

[mongo]

I think you overstate your case. I think that Americans who have accumulated funds in a tax-deferred account could trigger a 1-time tax event for more than $7,500 possibly by withdrawing as little as the amount needed to pay for the car itself. This makes the Tax Credit a DOUBLE-DEMAND Lever.

Then there's the leasing approach, where the leasor gets the full $7,500 IRA credit but the leasee gets a reduced monthly payment. Lot's of ways to skin this tax cat.

Paging @mongo for another opinion.

Cheers!

I was avoiding US centric tax intricacies, but since I was summoned ...
One could boost taxes by rolling IRA or previous employer 401k assets into a Roth. Direct withdrawals if under 59-1/2 would trigger a 10% penalty.

However, those actions also increase taxable income which impacts eligibility for many state rebates as @dbeiler referred to.

 

[Knightshade]

In a robotaxi you have nothing to do other than read, game, surf the internet or watch TV. Apple's 2 x 4k screens one inch from your eyeballs (it is much more pleasant than it sounds for those that haven't tried) will be the best for all four.

VR games while seated in a car with no space around you to swing/move either yourself or the VR controllers sounds awful--Most VR setups require a LARGE space around the user, and sensors to track their movement in that space....as someone who has done VR gaming on a number of existing systems I have to ask if you've ever actually used one to suggest "back seat of a car" as "best" for this?

As does dozens of strangers sharing headsets and controllers (that you'd need to also secure in the vehicle to prevent theft and which will waste a bunch of interior room for people riding but not playing)... or do you imagine everyone is going to carry their own headsets and controllers around just to use in RTs?

That's apart from how you're planning to connect the headset and controllers to the car (rear USB ports are power only in most Teslas, no data- so now you're on wifi, and good luck supporting multiple 4k VR streams, and controller inputs, on the cars wifi) and more importantly WHAT you plan to connect them to- since most Teslas still have MCU 1 or 2 that are absolutely useless for VR... and even MCU3 is useless for 4k VR outside the tiny # of them in S/X that got discrete GPUs.

On top of that, the excellent stereo in the car itself is going be better to enjoy a tv show or movie than the speakers in a VR headset. More comfortably certainly as well.

 

[JRP3]

In a robotaxi you have nothing to do other than read, game, surf the internet or watch TV. Apple's 2 x 4k screens one inch from your eyeballs (it is much more pleasant than it sounds for those that haven't tried) will be the best for all four. You also have a ready supply of power.

So no different than a conventional taxi, Uber, bus, or airplane really. You don't see much VR use in any of those do you?

 

[FireMedic]

Presumably whoever did the referral will explain about FSD and how it works. Not the same as “Just try it on your own with no guidance”.

I think this point is under appreciated. In my opinion, FSD beta isn’t ready for the lay person to jump in and press play. It’s still making mistakes; requiring a disciplined supervisor. I’m still learning this fine art.

I’m confident (based on personal experience only and no industry knowledge) that a not so distant build will be appropriate for wide free trial.

I do think offering it to existing customers as part of the referral program could be a driver for adding subscribers even as it is now.

 

[jerry33]

$10 Billion dollar bet that if this was a Tesla, it would be Global news.
Note, not once in the article do they mention the manufacturer or model.
Not even in the caption under the photos or video.
Ironically, one of the video clips was provided to the police came from Teslacam of a nearby Tesla. Correct, that wasn't mentioned either.
The children made it out alive thankfully.


Florida woman was shoplifting when her car with 2 children inside burst into flames, police say

Florida woman was shoplifting when her car with 2 children inside burst into flames, police say

A Florida woman left two children in a car that burst into flames while she was shoplifting inside a retail store, police said.

www.foxnews.com

Yes. Pay to Play.

 

[Buckminster]

VR questions moved here:
Tesla VR / AR

 

[insaneoctane]

VR games while seated in a car with no space around you to swing/move either yourself or the VR controllers sounds awful--Most VR setups require a LARGE space around the user, and sensors to track their movement in that space....as someone who has done VR gaming on a number of existing systems I have to ask if you've ever actually used one to suggest "back seat of a car" as "best" for this?

As does dozens of strangers sharing headsets and controllers (that you'd need to also secure in the vehicle to prevent theft and which will waste a bunch of interior room for people riding but not playing)... or do you imagine everyone is going to carry their own headsets and controllers around just to use in RTs?

That's apart from how you're planning to connect the headset and controllers to the car (rear USB ports are power only in most Teslas, no data- so now you're on wifi, and good luck supporting multiple 4k VR streams, and controller inputs, on the cars wifi) and more importantly WHAT you plan to connect them to- since most Teslas still have MCU 1 or 2 that are absolutely useless for VR... and even MCU3 is useless for 4k VR outside the tiny # of them in S/X that got discrete GPUs.

On top of that, the excellent stereo in the car itself is going be better to enjoy a tv show or movie than the speakers in a VR headset. More comfortably certainly as well.

Not to mention all the variety of accelerations one would feel as the vehicle performs it's various navigation maneuvers. Those G forces coming from random directions and completely unrelated to what you're viewing via headset, which prevents you from observing your actual surroundings with even your peripheral vision? To each, their own, but that sounds like turning RT into a VOMIT COMET!