brucet999
Active Member
If the thing were to produce a lot of false positives, braking suddenly unnecessarily, it could cause rear end accidents with cars following.
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Agreed, if Tesla GAVE me the car I’d be right with you. Unfortunately beyond the car, I paid for features like EAP and FSD. And these cars are not cheap for key features not to be working, especially AEB.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
I wonder why this was only implemented on new AP2.5 vehicles ... according to CR
This update applies only to Tesla vehicles built since Model 3 production began in late July, including all Model 3s, as well as newer Model S sedans and Model X SUVs. That means it will not affect the AEB systems on the vast majority of Teslas on the road today. CR learned about this move from a note posted by a Tesla owner on a Reddit message board; that owner said he received his notice on Saturday
Actually, it sounds like this is different. In those cases, the "validation" occurred in cars before the software feature was turned on with respect to a hardware package. Here, unless I'm wrong, Tesla turned off a safety feature for "validation" in connection with a hardware package after that feature had been out in the wild on customer cars for a while in the specified hardware/software combination.
It's a big deal to sell & deliver a car with a usable safety feature and then later take the safety feature off of the already delivered car (even if supposedly only temporarily.
Tesla uses the excuses of "validation" and "machine learning" to sell features that aren't yet ready for consumer use and (in some cases) appear to just plain not exist in any tested/finished form. One thing to be said abut the lack of OTA updates in other cars is that it forces other manufacturers to not play this game.
For anyone who thinks this is unusual or only happens at Tesla ..... nope
Same issue on many 2014 and 2015 ES models. The PCS system was having issues differentiating between metal plates in the road and a vehicle in the cars path. When this occurred the vehicle would brake suddenly for no apparent reason. At first the system was disabled by the dealership ( recall letter , visitor to dealer, system disabled ) then some months later the actual repair was issued and involved a new ecu and sensor install for the PCS system. Another trip to the dealer.
Not sure what issue Tesla has discovered , but I'll bet they solve it without a trip back to the service center.
And being able to disable the system has saved the customer a trip. Now I would want an on screen notification for sure if a key safety system on my car had been remotely disabled.
Same issue on many 2014 and 2015 ES models. The PCS system was having issues differentiating between metal plates in the road and a vehicle in the cars path. When this occurred the vehicle would brake suddenly for no apparent reason. At first the system was disabled by the dealership ( recall letter , visitor to dealer, system disabled ) then some months later the actual repair was issued and involved a new ecu and sensor install for the PCS system. Another trip to the dealer.
Not sure what issue Tesla has discovered , but I'll bet they solve it without a trip back to the service center.
And being able to disable the system has saved the customer a trip. Now I would want an on screen notification for sure if a key safety system on my car had been remotely disabled.
I read the article. I do not see what is unethical about what Tesla says it is doing. It is in effect a "recall" to evaluate and fix a potential problem, except that in this case the evaluation and fix are done OTA and the owner doesn't have to lift a finger nor are they deprived of the use of their car.
QUOTE:
"According to a Tesla statement from early August, the company updated some of the hardware for new vehicles across its line. “This hardware set has some added computing and wiring redundancy, which very slightly improves reliability,” the company said.
That update apparently led to Tesla’s move to evaluate its AEB system in these new models. "We recently introduced some minor hardware changes to the Autopilot system in new cars, and we are now in the process of robustly validating the new hardware using real-world driving data,” a Tesla spokeswoman said in a statement Sunday afternoon. “During that process, Automatic Emergency Braking will temporarily be inactive and will instead be in shadow mode, which means it will register how the feature would perform if it were activated, without taking any action. This temporary calibration period is standard Tesla protocol and is done out of an abundance of caution.”
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Sounds pretty sensible to me.
Tesla shouldn't release new hardware until they've vigorously tested its functionality in conjunction with their software. It is unacceptable first to release the hardware to the consumer and then try to validate these software features -- all the while advertising that their hardware can do the things that they haven't validated.
You are making an assumption that Tesla does not "vigorously" test before releasing hardware/software. You have absolutely zero knowledge of what internal testing Tesla does or does not do because you don't work for Tesla in the department that designs and tests functions like AEB. Yet you make confident pronouncements about what Tesla "should" do.
Clearly not enough testing was performed if they only retroactively discovered their hardware does not perform AEB adequately. That is self-evident and we do not need to be privy to Tesla's testing (if any was done) of that hardware and software.
Tesla also has a history of such duplicitousness in regards to AEB rollout and therefore should not be accorded any benefit of the doubt.
Reeler
Decade of Pure EV Driving
I was disappointed at first when I received one of the last HW1.0 cars a year ago, but am happier and happier as time goes by. Tesla rushed to release HW2.0 and HW2.5 too apparently.
I will probably only own this car 3 years or so and I would be pissed if one third of my ownership was dealing with this beta non-sense. Every other car I have purchased worked on day one. It never got better, but at least it worked as advertised.
Come to think of it, maybe that is why Tesla avoids advertising. That way all the false advertising consumer protections don't kick in?
I will probably only own this car 3 years or so and I would be pissed if one third of my ownership was dealing with this beta non-sense. Every other car I have purchased worked on day one. It never got better, but at least it worked as advertised.
Come to think of it, maybe that is why Tesla avoids advertising. That way all the false advertising consumer protections don't kick in?
Wasn't AEB rushed out the day after an unfavourable news item just so our Dear Leader could say the article was false? All the false positive braking events reported here point to yet another half-baked, rushed effort.
The much wilder and more flimsy assumption is that Tesla does vigorously test. We have no evidence of that. The entire saga of announcement, publicity, release, and functionality of EAP and HW2 -- not to mention the AP team drama more generally and the CA disengagement reports! -- is strong evidence that we are at best alpha testers and/or dupes. The taxonomy of releases isn't full of rigid designators, but that doesn't mean a company gets to just call a release whatever it wants to, and thereby shield itself from all liability.
The proof is in the pudding.
It doesn't taste good.
Yes, Consumer Reports called Tesla out on their deception of consumers, like me, that were promised AEB by December 2016 but instead got nothing but delays and lack of information. Consumer Reports' car got the partial AEB update the next day but the rest of us peons had to wait.
PJFW8
Red Menace may hurt me
We are "early adopters". Compare the HDTV roll-out: my year one Mitsubishi HDTV had RGB-HV inputs. The next year they switched to component. Then Firewire (remember the "Promise Module" ?) which was replaced by DVI! There was no apology when they changed to HDMI. I have a storage locker full of adapters and a new TV. I hindsight, my wife thinks I'm nuts and perhaps a a bit impatient. It has been a great ride. I know my Tesla is not a Camry! I do wish Tesla were a little more forth-coming, but the bleeding edge is just that. Tesla is not for those looking for basic transportation. Camry and Honda make transportation appliances without apology. I want something ludicrous!
So Tesla could have waited to release the AP2.5 hardware for several more months to do more extensive validation. Which would have resulted in thousands of people buying cars with the older hardware during those few months. If you surveyed those people afterward and asked them, "Do you wish Tesla had given you the new hardware with disabled functionality for a few weeks, or would you rather have older hardware that was enabled from the start?" I bet 90+% would answer Yes. As somebody taking delivery of an S next week, I am definitely in the Yes category. I'll accept that AEB is disabled for the first few weeks if it means I'm getting a better radar or whatever else in exchange.
Either way, everybody complains.
Either way, everybody complains.
Why no option to edit post? I meant that 90+% of people would take the new hardware instead of old.
I'm getting ready to hear about a minivan full of family members getting a-packed on the freeway when the AEB suddenly decided to false positive.
That's how this played out last time...lots of sudden updates and 2 months later we learned there was a fatal accident (brown)
That's how this played out last time...lots of sudden updates and 2 months later we learned there was a fatal accident (brown)
My family has different needs. All our cars are advanced AEB and we will not buy ones that are not.
Airbags are nice, but not running into crap is vastly superior, right?
Or do you believe the purpose of safety is to somehow survive crash? I believe safety is eliminate the whole crash component. Even seatbelts are more effective when you don't crash as are crumple zones. If cars didn't spend so much time ramming each other and immovable objects, you could reduce the cost of cars dramatically, improve economy and EV range. Even your tires would last longer.
There is no downside to avoiding collisions.
It's 2017. We are not early adopters of anything other than EVs, and even that is pretty arguable. The technology that Tesla is struggling with is not new at all. Every other manufacturer seems to have figured out how to ship AEB and, I dunno, blind-side monitoring and auto-detecting wipers. Tesla is forcing itself to handle problems in novel ways because their CEO is committed to a particular hardware approach that is neither fiscally necessary or proven, and Tesla has no qualms with "over-stating" on their website. (Also, I don't know what TVs other people buy, but mine don't cost as much as my X and I don't drive my family around in them.)
And Tesla is not a start up. It's one of the most valuable companies in the world and has been making cars for almost a decade. They have factories!
And Tesla is not a start up. It's one of the most valuable companies in the world and has been making cars for almost a decade. They have factories!
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