Tesla Turns Off AEB In New Cars Produced Since July

[bro1999]

Imagine GM or Ford pulled this stunt. The reaction would be very different (and not in a good way).

 

[McRat]

I'm getting ready to hear about a minivan full of family members getting a-packed on the freeway when the AEB suddenly decided to false positive.

That's how this played out last time...lots of sudden updates and 2 months later we learned there was a fatal accident (brown)

I drive cars with AEB every day. How do they work? Mine go through 3 stages.

1) WARNING phase, not subtle. LED, audible, HUD, seat vibration, etc. You know. Car does not slow.
2) Enhanced brake boost. People with weak legs will be able to go 100% brakes. Car does not slow. IIRC, the brake lights come on.
3) The car SLAMS on the brakes at 100% peak effort, the car shudders >100 times a second from ABS pulse. Can stop the car before it hits the object at most legal speeds. Can be augmented with long range thermal imaging, but always uses visible light camera. High speed needs radar, long range needs thermal imaging.

At ANY point of this cycle I can hit the accelerator and override it. False positives never get past Level 1 in my experience. But they aren't really 'false' they are potential. I've never seen a shadow, railroad Xing, etc, trip Level 1, only cars, bicycles, pedestrians, and plants. Works in reverse too.

Simple demo of AEB system, I had to brace myself hard in the back seat to shoot it:

 

[PJFW8]

It's 2017. We are not early adopters of anything other than EVs, and even that is pretty arguable. The technology that Tesla is struggling with is not new at all. Every other manufacturer seems to have figured out how to ship AEB and, I dunno, blind-side monitoring and auto-detecting wipers. Tesla is forcing itself to handle problems in novel ways because their CEO is committed to a particular hardware approach that is neither fiscally necessary or proven, and Tesla has no qualms with "over-stating" on their website. (Also, I don't know what TVs other people buy, but mine don't cost as much as my X and I don't drive my family around in them.)

And Tesla is not a start up. It's one of the most valuable companies in the world and has been making cars for almost a decade. They have factories!

I agree with your point except for the "early adopter" part. Tesla has indeed made wilful as opposed to thoughtful choices at times. The switch to AP2 is a good example. No one else in the industry agrees with Tesla's camera based approach. Nevertheless, I believe in Tesla and will tolerate a few false starts. If you want rock solid reliability, buy a Toyota! Ford and GM are more that 100 years old. In the 60's, Toyota made cars that would not start in winter. First generation Honda Accords were recalled for severe and dangerous rusting of the front fenders and suspensions on the first generation Accord. Tesla is still taking baby steps, especially with volume assembly. You are right, but we still need patience. The time for patience is quickly coming to an end.

 

[alcibiades]

I agree with your point except for the "early adopter" part. Tesla has indeed made wilful as opposed to thoughtful choices at times. The switch to AP2 is a good example. No one else in the industry agrees with Tesla's camera based approach. Nevertheless, I believe in Tesla and will tolerate a few false starts. If you want rock solid reliability, buy a Toyota! Ford and GM are more that 100 years old. In the 60's, Toyota made cars that would not start in winter. First generation Honda Accords were recalled for severe and dangerous rusting of the front fenders and suspensions on the first generation Accord. Tesla is still taking baby steps, especially with volume assembly. You are right, but we still need patience. The time for patience is quickly coming to an end.

If Tesla was struggling with automatic lane change and interstate exiting, then we would be talking early adopter problems -- these would be new features. Instead Tesla is struggling with features that have been available for a long time in other cars (TACC, AEB, blindspot monitoring, autowipers) or that it itself had previously shipped better versions of in its own cars.

Don't ship the hardware without validating key safety components. To think that this is somehow a controversial idea is bizarre.

 

[OilSucks]

Yet more proof that Tesla is utterly incapable of performing the kind of thorough testing and feature validation done by established automakers. There is no positive spin to this no matter how hard you try.

Seriously this is starting to worry me and my taste for all things Tesla is slowly starting to sour... From the whole AP1 vs. AP2 debate, to this... I don't know, I'm not really on board with being a real life test dummy for tech that may or may not work at 75mph.

 

[R.S]

Seriously this is starting to worry me and my taste for all things Tesla is slowly starting to sour... From the whole AP1 vs. AP2 debate, to this... I don't know, I'm not really on board with being a real life test dummy for tech that may or may not work at 75mph.

That's my biggest issue with it. I really don't mind them pulling AEB, or taking their time with EAP. What I dislike is treating the customers as beta testers.

And I know someone is going to come and try to convince me that Tesla clearly said this is beta software, so everything is fine. But beta testers usually don't pay money for being beta testers. Especially not for something potentially really dangerous, like Autopilot.
And usually beta testers for autonomous cars get trained for it. They know when things are going wrong and what to do then.

On the other hand we have public statements about how much safer driving with AP is. So is it something potentially dangerous, that needs to be watched closely by the customer, or is it something that's much safer than driving yourself?

 

[brianman]

There is no downside to avoiding collisions.

Unless it involves causing another collision.

 

[u00mem9]

Tesla is basically using a software dev philosophy for safety related items. That's not going to accepted by nhtsa long term.

The only way I can understand this decision was done in the interest of "safety" is if the risk associated with false positives was higher than the risk from not working when needed. The official comment is a little bit incredible...they will observe the vehicle fleet (presumably crashing!) and note how the system would have reacted?!?!

 

[OilSucks]

Tesla is basically using a software dev philosophy for safety related items. That's not going to accepted by nhtsa long term.

The only way I can understand this decision was done in the interest of "safety" is if the risk associated with false positives was higher than the risk from not working when needed. The official comment is a little bit incredible...they will observe the vehicle fleet (presumably crashing!) and note how the system would have reacted?!?!

I've only had one AEB false positive but that was enough to make me question my Tesla purchase completely. Especially when there was nothing to even stop for and I went from 75mph to 40mph in about a second and a half. That wasn't a great idea on a freeway. Luckily I had no one behind me, to the side of me, or in front of me either. I think it detected a soda can in the road and engaged itself.

 

[Kant.Ing]

My wife heard this and asked me if now engineers in the company are capable of killing someone remotely.

 

[alcibiades]

My wife heard this and asked me if now engineers in the company are capable of killing someone remotely.

You better just hope that none of them read that post while you're driving!

 

[AmpedRealtor]

This due to the installation of the new Continental radars in the new AP suite. They require real-world validation since AEB is radar only. This isn't due to a "defect" found in select cars with existing hardware.

And why, pray tell, would Tesla be performing the validation after it has put the feature into the hands of customers? Which other company does this? Can you name one other than Tesla? What Tesla is doing here is absolutely bonkers.

You are making an assumption that Tesla does not "vigorously" test before releasing hardware/software. You have absolutely zero knowledge of what internal testing Tesla does or does not do because you don't work for Tesla in the department that designs and tests functions like AEB. Yet you make confident pronouncements about what Tesla "should" do.

Given the announcement, it's pretty clear Tesla does not "vigorously test" anything. I'm not sure how you can say, with a straight face, that Tesla vigorously tests its hardware/software in the face of what is currently happening. Then add to that the lack of progress with EAP and the joke that is FSD. It seems like the fastest and easiest way to blind an otherwise intelligent human being is by putting him behind the wheel of a Tesla.

Don't ship the hardware without validating key safety components. To think that this is somehow a controversial idea is bizarre.

Unless you are a blind fanboy or a greedy stockholder... plenty of those everywhere, unfortunately.

 

[OilSucks]

If Tesla was struggling with automatic lane change and interstate exiting, then we would be talking early adopter problems -- these would be new features. Instead Tesla is struggling with features that have been available for a long time in other cars (TACC, AEB, blindspot monitoring, autowipers) or that it itself had previously shipped better versions of in its own cars.

Don't ship the hardware without validating key safety components. To think that this is somehow a controversial idea is bizarre.

What's worse is the recommendation to buy another car when we're obviously interested in buying a Tesla. Not smart if you think about it.

 

[Kant.Ing]

You better just hope that none of them read that post while you're driving!

She is a lawyer, knows where to start.

 

[Electroman]

And I know someone is going to come and try to convince me that Tesla clearly said this is beta software, so everything is fine.

I have to come out and say this: Tesla clearly said this is beta software, so everything is fine



[Okay I added a smile/wink emoji, because some folks are not getting it..]

 

[u00mem9]

I have to come out and say this: Tesla clearly said this is beta software, so everything is fine

We need a button for 'sad but true'

 

[croman]

I have to come out and say this: Tesla clearly said this is beta software, so everything is fine

Where does it say AEB is beta? This isn't autosteer. Nice try, 10/10 for effort.

 

[OilSucks]

We are "early adopters". Compare the HDTV roll-out: my year one Mitsubishi HDTV had RGB-HV inputs. The next year they switched to component. Then Firewire (remember the "Promise Module" ?) which was replaced by DVI! There was no apology when they changed to HDMI. I have a storage locker full of adapters and a new TV. I hindsight, my wife thinks I'm nuts and perhaps a a bit impatient. It has been a great ride. I know my Tesla is not a Camry! I do wish Tesla were a little more forth-coming, but the bleeding edge is just that. Tesla is not for those looking for basic transportation. Camry and Honda make transportation appliances without apology. I want something ludicrous!

I'm not someone who compares TV models to vehicles that go 60+ mph that I put my life in the hands of. If the bleeding edge involves being beta testers for cars then I want that stated clearly and plainly on Teslas website. Otherwise this is dangerous and silly to put Teslas entire name on the line for. There is no need to be the first to market if it is going to get someone hurt.

 

[bswn1]

And why, pray tell, would Tesla be performing the validation after it has put the feature into the hands of customers? Which other company does this? Can you name one other than Tesla? What Tesla is doing here is absolutely bonkers.

What are you talking about? Customers picking up their cars this week are the first batch of 2.5 and have never had this feature activated. It wasn't activated at delivery, then later de-activated.

It's also not being de-activated on any cars with AP 2.0 that have had it since July activation.

I'm not sure why there's a huge uproar here, this has happened with every AP hardware roll-out since it began in Oct 2014 and will continue with every AP roll-out from here until the time they stop using radar.

 

[McRat]

Where does it say AEB is beta? This isn't autosteer. Nice try, 10/10 for effort.

Did you see that thread where the Tesla owner tried to test low speed AEB in controlled conditions? All I can say is make sure the decoy is soft.