Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA

[BGbreeder]

No radiant barrier. I thought about it, but I have a solarroof and am worried about cooking the underside of the tiles and wires.

I think a part of the issue is we have very few intake vents, a dozen or so 1" diameter holes on each side's eaves, so I am looking into increasing those. We also have a 2' X 3' gable vent on each end of the main roof and I may also add fans to those.

Reflective radiant heat barriers make a big difference, as does more insulation. I think that they are both pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

You might want to check your local fire regulations on roof vents before changing them. The new norm is for much smaller vents due to the fire risk. As Santa Rosa demonstrated, wind does a good job of moving fires through suburbs, and a common route is through gable and roof vents. If you do change it, the current recommendation is for baffles (to block wind driven embers from touching the screens) backed by steel mesh with openings not larger than 1/16" (~200 mesh). We redid our roof recently, and the ventilation was completely redone with much smaller vents.

Nice guidance here; Vents - FIRESafe MARIN and

Vents - Fire in California

Don't forget that the radiant heat barriers can have a negative impact on cell phone signal transmission, depending on where your towers are.

All the best,

BG

 

[jboy210]

Reflective radiant heat barriers make a big difference, as does more insulation. I think that they are both pretty cheap in the grand scheme of things.

You might want to check your local fire regulations on roof vents before changing them. The new norm is for much smaller vents due to the fire risk. As Santa Rosa demonstrated, wind does a good job of moving fires through suburbs, and a common route is through gable and roof vents. If you do change it, the current recommendation is for baffles (to block wind driven embers fro touching the screens) backed by steel mesh with openings not larger than 1/16" (~200 mesh). We redid our roof recently, and the ventilation was completely redone with much smaller vents.

Nice guidance here; Vents - FIRESafe MARIN and

Vents - Fire in California

Don't forget that the radiant heat barriers can have a negative impact on cell phone signal transmission, depending on where your towers are.

All the best,

BG

Thanks. Good point about the fire risk. We live at the base of a wooded 1000 foot or so hill and fire danger is a real concern.

We just had the insulation redone 2 weeks ago. This was the first time in 20+ years we have been in this house and the old insulation was horrible looking and flat. They did verify that intake vents are now open and not clogged with the new insulation. They use rolled versus blown insulation to help ensure the vents would not get clogged.

 

[BGbreeder]

FWIW: I added 16" or so of rolled insulation to the attic in part of a weekend. It goes in quickly. You just need to be careful where you step, or bring in a strip of plywood to bridge the joists while you work, or both...Wear long sleeves, a mask, a hat, and glasses. I have never put a foot through a ceiling, but it is a real risk.

I think we are up around R-50 now, and it definitely made a difference summer and winter. Paid for itself in the first winter.

All the best,

BG

 

[jboy210]

FWIW: I added 16" or so of rolled insulation to the attic in part of a weekend. It goes in quickly. You just need to be careful where you step, or bring in a strip of plywood to bridge the joists while you work, or both...Wear long sleeves, a mask, a hat, and glasses. I have never put a foot through a ceiling, but it is a real risk.

I think we are up around R-50 now, and it definitely made a difference summer and winter. Paid for itself in the first winter.

All the best,

BG

I am hoping ours helps in the winter. The stuff they put in was R-32 so hopefully that is enough.

 

[tomuo]

FWIW: I added 16" or so of rolled insulation to the attic in part of a weekend. It goes in quickly. You just need to be careful where you step, or bring in a strip of plywood to bridge the joists while you work, or both...Wear long sleeves, a mask, a hat, and glasses. I have never put a foot through a ceiling, but it is a real risk.

I think we are up around R-50 now, and it definitely made a difference summer and winter. Paid for itself in the first winter.

All the best,

BG

My 1968 house came with zero attic insulation, so I installed that myself as well as the radiant barrier. It could always be thicker, but to add a second layer you need un-faced rolls (vapor barrier goes on the first layer facing the ceiling)
For some reason it's not a popular product at the DIY stores, hard to get.
At this point though I'm thinking the insulation in the exterior walls (which it does have some of) is too thin and would benefit from injected foam, which isn't a DIY project.

 

[ClarDold]

This (or any program like it) is a hard pass for me, unless they pay enough that I would be able to buy new powerwalls in 3 years or so.

VPP has been live in Massachusetts for a while. I saw a Youtube Video from a guy who received $2000 last year.
That's a little longer than a three year payoff, but I wanted the Powerwall anyway.

 

[sunwarriors]

VPP has been live in Massachusetts for a while. I saw a Youtube Video from a guy who received $2000 last year.
That's a little longer than a three year payoff, but I wanted the Powerwall anyway.

I'm guessing there are a lot more powerwalls/battery installs in California overall vs. MA so it's more likely any payment would be substantially less simply due to supply/demand. We already have people offering powerwalls for free so why would for profit utilities pay more than the minimum (if any at all?). I assume being on VPP also has a negative cost for participants due to higher battery cycles lowering their lifespan slightly.

 

[strangely]

Anyone here also using OhmConnect and enable this? I guess it could either really help if the events were during the same periods (likely), however may also really harm the OhmConnect baselines if they run it more often than Ohmhours.

 

[BGbreeder]

There are serious dollars available to some customers;
Gov. Newsom signed an order offering $2/kWh of avoided demand under CAISO alerts, and $0.75/kWh of avoided, but unused demand.

Some interesting add ins;

...All energy agencies shall act immediately to achieve energy stability during this emergency, and the California Public Utilities Commission is requested to do the same. In particular, the California Energy Commission is directed, and the California Public Utilities Commission and the CAISO are requested, to work with the State's load serving entities on accelerating plans for the construction, procurement, and rapid deployment of new clean energy and storage projects to mitigate the risk of capacity shortages and increase the availability of carbon-free energy at all times of day...

All the best,

BG

 

[jboy210]

There are serious dollars available to some customers;
Gov. Newsom signed an order offering $2/kWh of avoided demand under CAISO alerts, and $0.75/kWh of avoided, but unused demand.

Some interesting add ins;


All the best,

BG

How does this money flow? As it is now Tesla says the VPP gives you $0.00 for participating. With this order is it $0.00 + $2/kWh to the Powerwall owner? If so, that would make it worthwhile to turn the option on.

 

[VickiSoCal]

So if last year I used 10 KW from 4 to 9 pm and this year I use non, because I am running on battery, I should get 20 dollars? What about subsequent years when my year over year is 0/0?

 

[charlesj]

Well, when this is ironed out for the better, then I will jump on it.
Now wondering if this is only area wide or power company wide.

 

[cali8484]

There are serious dollars available to some customers;
Gov. Newsom signed an order offering $2/kWh of avoided demand under CAISO alerts, and $0.75/kWh of avoided, but unused demand.

Some interesting add ins;


All the best,

BG

My understanding is that the incentive is for large/industrial power consumers rather than home owners. I think the rationale is that factories (e.g. Tesla) could shut down production during peak demand times and shift production to off-peak times.

 

[BGbreeder]

My understanding is that the incentive is for large/industrial power consumers rather than home owners. I think the rationale is that factories (e.g. Tesla) could shut down production during peak demand times and shift production to off-peak times.

I agree that the language seems to be directed at large scale users, rather than residential, but at the same time a) a VPP is a large source/sink and b) the language did not explicitly rule out other ways of achieving the reduction.

All the best,

BG

 

[ClarDold]

My understanding is that the incentive is for large/industrial power

I think that is the nature of the Tesla VPP. It becomes a Power Plant, utilizing your batteries.

Something similar has occurred for years with my JuiceBox smart grid EV charging station.
The local utility makes a "demand", and Enel-X provides "Demand Response" by suppressing charging during the event.
Enel-X refers to this as a Virtual Battery. In six years, I have only noticed "events" in August a couple of years ago, and I don't charge between 6-8 pm anyway.

Enel-X Virtual Battery

 

[charlesj]

I think that is the nature of the Tesla VPP. It becomes a Power Plant, utilizing your batteries.

...

Enel-X Virtual Battery

So, does this mean that Tesla will or could collect from our battery but not us?

 

[cali8484]

I think that is the nature of the Tesla VPP. It becomes a Power Plant, utilizing your batteries.

Something similar has occurred for years with my JuiceBox smart grid EV charging station.
The local utility makes a "demand", and Enel-X provides "Demand Response" by suppressing charging during the event.
Enel-X refers to this as a Virtual Battery. In six years, I have only noticed "events" in August a couple of years ago, and I don't charge between 6-8 pm anyway.

Enel-X Virtual Battery

Maybe. I've been getting JuicePoints for years as well but I use it mainly to charge using more clean power and it's something I can override at will. So, I am not sure how well that works in times of high blackout risk when VPP power reduction is most needed. I would certainly override and charge up my car fully when there is significant risk of blackout.

 

[MJ_CA_2019]

Is this related to VPP?
Saw it under the Summary: Product and Installation information

 

[ClarDold]

I would certainly override and charge up my car fully when there is significant risk of blackout.

The charging events, and Tesla VPP, are both Demand Response. You can look at California to see their plan. This isn't in the face of impending blackout. A predicted rolling blackout would actually trigger StormWatch, and allow your Powerwall to charge from the grid.

This VPP is to relieve the grid, usually to avoid energy import from neighboring states at higher prices, or starting up power plants that aren't clean, are expensive to operate and maintain. The kWh price of a plant that needs to fire up hours before the predicted demand, run during the demand, and then shut down and receive maintenance, could exceed the $2/kWh mentioned in the governor's note.
Being able to trigger Demand Response when it's needed, available to turn on and off instantly, is much easier to manage on the grid. Those segments were 15 minutes, as I recall, and JuiceNet responded in two hour blocks. That might become more adjustable within VPP.
A lot of generation units are not scalable. They generate a mW or nothing. Tesla VPP could be incredibly granular, supplying a few watts exactly in the neighborhood where it's needed for the time period when it's needed.

None of this is being done out of the goodness of their hearts. It's all about the money, and the whimsical, but somewhat predictable, consumer usage, minute by minute. Toss in a tiny bit of "Green" as justification for a new plan, and it can happen.

Tesla VPP says they are going to manage this for the common good, so PG&E probably won't be paying $2/kWh. Individual homeowners are initially going to receive only whatever the NEM rates are, probably Peak Rates, like I am supplying PV energy until the sun goes down. The batteries could supply that later in the evening. The AI behind Powerwalls is massive, and many interesting things can happen.

 

[ClarDold]

I've been getting JuicePoints for years as well but I use it mainly to charge using more clean power

Those are two different products from JuiceNet/Enel-X.
As I understand it, there are three products from Enel-X.

The original JuicePoints is able to suppress my charging when they bid for Demand Response events from the utility. You get the $0.001 worth of JuicePoints. Enel-X gets something for the Demand Response. My local utility chose to control their customers directly, so I don't get JuicePoints. I got a JuiceBox for free, and $5 off my bill for every month that the JuiceBox is on the network.

The second is JuiceNet Green, which cycles your charging off and on in five minute increments, based on which ranked clean sources of energy are available on on your grid. "Enables you to charge your EV when the cleanest energy is available on the grid".

Third is JuiceNet Eco, which participates in exchange of RECs, "Make your EV charging cleaner even if you charge in places where direct renewable energy sources are not available" where you only charge from green sources, where JuiceNet Green only does the best possible on your grid.

My utility offers "Evergreen". I get most of my energy from my own solar PV. What I do get from the grid is all "green". It used to be from a geothermal plant, but they have added a few MW of solar plants recently. Because of that, JuiceNet Eco doesn't apply. JuiceNet Green should never be invoked. JuicePoints can be invoked, but have only been a few times that I saw in the app. There might have been others that I didn't see.