Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA

[Zabe]

I do not think this is accurate that Tesla would need to reprogram the app. Individuals in other countries, and a very limited (possibly as low as one who reported their experience on this site) number of individuals in the US do have grid charging with solar. The point being it is a configuration setting that disables this functionality rather than missing functionality. Why Tesla chooses not to make this option available in the US has been discussed at length, but the general belief has been some combination of the ITC and the patchwork of state/local/utility regulations, some of which might prohibit or have other rules around grid charging combined with solar/NEM. It also seems consistent with Tesla to keep things simple - fewer options - so it has been easier for them to just set a blanket rule for the US.

I agree. I think it is the ITC issue/simplicity/various regulations and that is why h2o is going to have a hard time grid charging the SGIP powerwalls. Heck I do not have solar and I am having to force the application to charge the batteries off peak. If the App was left to do what it wants to do my batteries would have been sitting at 15% capacity for the last 3 weeks in standby.

Some Tesla customers desperately need them to make advanced setting available in the application. My tesla app needs to grid charge my batteries off peak. Others need/want to be able to customized when and how they use their solar/powerwalls due to differences in rate structure and having a better idea of future weather forecasts and solar output changes in the near future where they live.

 

[bmah]

What version of the Powerwall firmware enables the Virtual Power Plant beta?

I have v 3.10.14 of the Android app, v 21.20.2 of the Powerwall firmware and I'm a PG&E customer in NorCal, but I don't have the option.

In case this was already asked/posted, then I apologize in advance about my sub-par search skillz

Great question! I don't think we (semi-informed customers) know the answer yet. I haven't seen reports from anybody on TMC of actually receiving the necessary firmware upgrade and having the feature show up in the app.

Bruce.

PS. If the above is correct, we have collectively written over 100 posts in this thread, based on zero first-hand experience with the VPP feature (as implemented for California anyway).

 

[ElectricCyclist]

Great question! I don't think we (semi-informed customers) know the answer yet. I haven't seen reports from anybody on TMC of actually receiving the necessary firmware upgrade and having the feature show up in the app.

Bruce.

PS. If the above is correct, we have collectively written over 100 posts in this thread, based on zero first-hand experience with the VPP feature (as implemented for California anyway).

I had it appear yesterday go to the customize section and scroll down to turn on the Beta. I am on app version 3.10.14 on Android and my Battery firmware is 20.49.0.

 

[astrorob]

The website I linked in the first post says:

Enrolling in the Tesla Virtual Power Plant in California requires the Tesla app 3.10.14 and a new Powerwall firmware version which will be released soon.

So it is likely that the PW firmware will be upgraded.

thanks, i am stupid and when i got the app update last night i see it points to the same document.

anyway i'll give this a try. disappointed that there's no bonus $$ but if i get to export stored off-peak solar at peak, that's at least something.

 

[cwied]

Great question! I don't think we (semi-informed customers) know the answer yet. I haven't seen reports from anybody on TMC of actually receiving the necessary firmware upgrade and having the feature show up in the app.

Bruce.

PS. If the above is correct, we have collectively written over 100 posts in this thread, based on zero first-hand experience with the VPP feature (as implemented for California anyway).

I have Powerwall firmware 21.20.2 and iOS app version 3.10.14 and enrolled yesterday. This seems to be a feature that can be switched on in the backend. There is a new “energy_services_self_scheduling_enabled” flag that is being returned from the API (at least I haven’t noticed it before).

I wonder if could also be related to the rate plan - I’m on EV2-A.

 

[h2ofun]

I do not think this is accurate that Tesla would need to reprogram the app. Individuals in other countries, and a very limited (possibly as low as one who reported their experience on this site) number of individuals in the US do have grid charging with solar. The point being it is a configuration setting that disables this functionality rather than missing functionality. Why Tesla chooses not to make this option available in the US has been discussed at length, but the general belief has been some combination of the ITC and the patchwork of state/local/utility regulations, some of which might prohibit or have other rules around grid charging combined with solar/NEM. It also seems consistent with Tesla to keep things simple - fewer options - so it has been easier for them to just set a blanket rule for the US.

I know the person in Arizona who tesla programed to charge from grid even though he has solar. I have seen first hand folks doing it in the US with a mod in the install screen. So, it CAN be done technically, pretty easily.

 

[h2ofun]

"Tesla" doesnt care at all if anyone goes off grid. Those are local Utility rules, not Tesla rules.

No, its not utility rules. PGE allows. SGIP allows. PUC allows. Only Tesla does not, even though they enable the person in Arizona

 

[bmah]

I have Powerwall firmware 21.20.2 and iOS app version 3.10.14 and enrolled yesterday. This seems to be a feature that can be switched on in the backend. There is a new “energy_services_self_scheduling_enabled” flag that is being returned from the API (at least I haven’t noticed it before).

I wonder if could also be related to the rate plan - I’m on EV2-A.

Tentatively I'd agree with "switched on the back end" because I have the same rate plan, firmware version, and app version as you, and I don't have the toggle on the Customize screen.

Ah wait...I live in PG&E territory but my generation comes from a CCA (Marin Clean Energy). I wonder how those customers are handled.

Bruce.

 

[jjrandorin]

No, its not utility rules. PGE allows. SGIP allows. PUC allows. Only Tesla does not, even though they enable the person in Arizona

You are not talking about the same thing that @Lloyd was talking about. You are focused on "charging from the grid" and thats not what was being discussed there. "Off grid" as in disconnected with no physical connection to the grid in a residential setting" is what @Lloyd is talking about.

 

[h2ofun]

You are not talking about the same thing that @Lloyd was talking about. You are focused on "charging from the grid" and thats not what was being discussed there. "Off grid" as in disconnected with no physical connection to the grid in a residential setting" is what @Lloyd is talking about.

Sorry, missed that

 

[VickiSoCal]

The main issue I see here is that Tesla assumes people only want their battery to carry them through 9 pm. I don't. I want my battery to last until ~7:30 am when solar kicks in. I want to avoid all NBC's. If you want me to sell back power from 4 to 9 and I don't now have enough charge to carry me to morning, I want to be paid enough to cover the NBCs if I have to buy from grid. I am currently not buying anything from grid. My batteries are charged by 1-2 pm, and I am in sell mode for excess solar until about 5:30 pm. (I don't actually have PTO yet but that's what I see in app)

I want to help the environment but not if it actually costs me more.

 

[cwied]

Tentatively I'd agree with "switched on the back end" because I have the same rate plan, firmware version, and app version as you, and I don't have the toggle on the Customize screen.

Ah wait...I live in PG&E territory but my generation comes from a CCA (Marin Clean Energy). I wonder how those customers are handled.

Bruce.

Probably a phased or geographic rollout then. I forgot to mention I'm with Peninsula Clean Energy.

 

[cwied]

Here's a document that has some interesting data that might illustrate how the Tesla VPP might be able to help: http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Preliminary-Root-Cause-Analysis-Rotating-Outages-August-2020.pdf

In particular, the Stage 3 Emergency on August 14 was from 6:38 pm to 8:38 pm and on August 15 it was from 6:28 pm to 6:48 pm. My Powerwalls normally discharge to offset house load from 3 pm to midnight. Concentrating that discharge into the shorter period that covers the shortfall would have a significant impact on my contribution to the grid.

 

[Zabe]

Here's a document that has some interesting data that might illustrate how the Tesla VPP might be able to help: http://www.caiso.com/Documents/Preliminary-Root-Cause-Analysis-Rotating-Outages-August-2020.pdf

In particular, the Stage 3 Emergency on August 14 was from 6:38 pm to 8:38 pm and on August 15 it was from 6:28 pm to 6:48 pm. My Powerwalls normally discharge to offset house load from 3 pm to midnight. Concentrating that discharge into the shorter period that covers the shortfall would have a significant impact on my contribution to the grid.

Can you cover your load with batteries from 3pm to midnight, and go to full output on powerwalls for 2 hours? Most likely the answer is no. A single powerwall would put out 10 kwh of the 13.5 kwh of storage in 2 hours. If you are on a TOU rate with elevated pricing from 3pm to midnight and you burn up essentially 75% of your storage in 2 hours and don't get compensated it is going to end up costing you (EV2a rate is almost .50c/kwh from 4pm-9pm all summer)

 

[Zabe]

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[tomuo]

The main issue I see here is that Tesla assumes people only want their battery to carry them through 9 pm. I don't. I want my battery to last until ~7:30 am when solar kicks in. I want to avoid all NBC's. If you want me to sell back power from 4 to 9 and I don't now have enough charge to carry me to morning, I want to be paid enough to cover the NBCs if I have to buy from grid. I am currently not buying anything from grid. My batteries are charged by 1-2 pm, and I am in sell mode for excess solar until about 5:30 pm. (I don't actually have PTO yet but that's what I see in app)

I want to help the environment but not if it actually costs me more.

Single PW here, I basically last through the peak to 9pm and a hour or so after that.
And that's only because I go extra cool (74) before 4pm and set to 78 during peak. If I turn on AC during the peak, I'm basically hitting reserve exactly at 9pm.
If I lower my reserve I can probably spare 1-2 kWh?

The days and times these events occur will be the hottest ones, so in the most likely case, I'm draining my battery extra low and hoping that a real outage / blown transformer due to heat and overload doesn't occur at all.

Seems like a lose-lose scenario.

My app is showing the Tesla Virtual Power Plant beta button. Not gonna push it...

 

[sunwarriors]

Can you cover your load with batteries from 3pm to midnight, and go to full output on powerwalls for 2 hours? Most likely the answer is no. A single powerwall would put out 10 kwh of the 13.5 kwh of storage in 2 hours. If you are on a TOU rate with elevated pricing from 3pm to midnight and you burn up essentially 75% of your storage in 2 hours and don't get compensated it is going to end up costing you (EV2a rate is almost .50c/kwh from 4pm-9pm all summer)

My thoughts are that the majority of people probably scale their batteries to generally cover enough for on-peak minimum (~3pm - 9pm) and of course, for grid failures. Even though there are those who get 6x powerwalls, I think those folks are in the minority.

If most people simply have a bit enough/extra to just carry on till 9pm or so normally, do they REALLY have the battery capacity to give 50% or more to the grid on the worst power usage days? That's what I was getting at earlier...send 50% of your powerwall to the grid and by 7pm, it's still 80-90+ degrees out, either you now pay on-peak rates or you'll probably run out of battery power since (I'm guessing here), majority of folks were expecting to go into these days near 100% battery.

 

[tomuo]

My thoughts are that the majority of people probably scale their batteries to generally cover enough for on-peak minimum (~3pm - 9pm) and of course, for grid failures. Even though there are those who get 6x powerwalls, I think those folks are in the minority.

If most people simply have a bit enough/extra to just carry on till 9pm or so normally, do they REALLY have the battery capacity to give 50% or more to the grid on the worst power usage days? That's what I was getting at earlier...send 50% of your powerwall to the grid and by 7pm, it's still 80-90+ degrees out, either you now pay on-peak rates or you'll probably run out of battery power since (I'm guessing here), majority of folks were expecting to go into these days near 100% battery.

The description also doesn't say what rate they would drain at. If they send out the max 5kW / PW, that's realistically about 1 hour of help that anyone would be willing to help out with.
If they allow us to say "yes, but maximum 1kW", then we can help out, and not have to worry about dumping the entire battery in the first hour of what they are saying would be multiple hour events.

 

[jboy210]

...

My app is showing the Tesla Virtual Power Plant beta button. Not gonna push it...

I am also not pushing it.

I wonder how many will end up opting in?

 

[BGbreeder]

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Thanks for sharing this.

What struck me about the interview wasn't just how predatory the CEO's attitude was, it was that Swell seems to have constructed a business model with long term commitments to utilities for peaker power, and yet the CEO was speaking about residential customers as if they weren't baked into matching long term contracts. Both ways would be a flag for me; homeowners with battery commitments beyond the length of their home/battery ownership, like solar leases, and a business model that wasn't appropriately hedged. There was also the implication that Swell was capturing most of the arbitrage of the VPP, which is what most folks here seem to be objecting to, which suggests to me that the business model won't be viable against others who offer more of the arbitrage to customers.

Time will tell...

All the best,

BG