Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA

[Vines]

Teslas VPP is the sort of thing that must happen to get to fully renewable grid in California. Like anything though it's painful at first.

1 powerwall+3kW PV in 50% of all California homes would not only eliminate all rolling blackouts, but also eliminate the problem that solar has right now in California: there is almost too much of it, and certainly it peaks at the wrong times. This "Duck Curve" problem is only getting worse. This would cost the state something like 50 billion to install in every home, so about 25% of a 1 year budget. It would take 10 years to deploy, so the true cost would be more like 5 billion per year. Even better once VPP included V2G enabled cars and bi-directional chargers.

When less than 1% of homes have this storage, the overall duck curve problem is only somewhat helped. Those customers VPP is a much larger portion of their individual storage, and a larger burden to individuals. When 50% of homes have it, the effect is much smaller, and also more efficient. Power doesn't have to travel as far, and so less is lost to transmission losses.

Personally, my Powerwalls will be part of the VPP when they do get installed. It's really the right thing to do especially since a large portion was paid by the state of California to begin with. I just have a transformer upgrade in my way first. PGE has so far taken like 4 months to think about it lol. I will happily donate 20% of my power reserve to the cause.

We also are adding another approx 7 kW of PV to my house so I am going to try to get a Powerwall+ if it's possible. They say that 3rd party channels will be able to order them sometime soon. It sure would make sense to ditch some of the DC-AC losses where possible. With a total of 13 kW of generation, all the Powerwalls will easily recharge each sunny day.

 

[Zabe]

Teslas VPP is the sort of thing that must happen to get to fully renewable grid in California. Like anything though it's painful at first.

1 powerwall+3kW PV in 50% of all California homes would not only eliminate all rolling blackouts, but also eliminate the problem that solar has right now in California: there is almost too much of it, and certainly it peaks at the wrong times. This "Duck Curve" problem is only getting worse. This would cost the state something like 50 billion to install in every home, so about 25% of a 1 year budget. It would take 10 years to deploy, so the true cost would be more like 5 billion per year. Even better once VPP included V2G enabled cars and bi-directional chargers.

When less than 1% of homes have this storage, the overall duck curve problem is only somewhat helped. Those customers VPP is a much larger portion of their individual storage, and a larger burden to individuals. When 50% of homes have it, the effect is much smaller, and also more efficient. Power doesn't have to travel as far, and so less is lost to transmission losses.

Personally, my Powerwalls will be part of the VPP when they do get installed. It's really the right thing to do especially since a large portion was paid by the state of California to begin with. I just have a transformer upgrade in my way first. PGE has so far taken like 4 months to think about it lol. I will happily donate 20% of my power reserve to the cause.

We also are adding another approx 7 kW of PV to my house so I am going to try to get a Powerwall+ if it's possible. They say that 3rd party channels will be able to order them sometime soon. It sure would make sense to ditch some of the DC-AC losses where possible. With a total of 13 kW of generation, all the Powerwalls will easily recharge each sunny day.

I would recommend investing into pump storage systems along the California aqueduct instead of a complex per home based battery storage system. These would be easy to ramp at any time, add bulk storage to our current system, add to our surface water storage, be renewable, and last 50 years or more. Plus it would not cost $50 B!

 

[charlesj]

Yes, indeed the program is beneficial to the grid and environment but the utility is the one being helped at no cost to them and most likely more profitable?
Yet, they want to increase monthly minimum charges to solar owners.

As to PV generation at wrong time of needs, the grid is open to other connected grids. Some surely could be buying it?

 

[Gigaron]

It is actually under Customize and not Settings.

 

[VickiSoCal]

I understand the benefit to the grid and to the environment, but the state of California and SCE gave me nothing, and after federal tax credit, my system is costing 30K. (In fact a good chunk of that is state sales tax!) I am already struggling to make a 8-9 year payback work. So if participating in this costs me even more money, I am out.

 

[Redhill_qik]

. This would cost the state something like 50 billion to install in every home, so about 25% of a 1 year budget. It would take 10 years to deploy, so the true cost would be more like 5 billion per year.

And at the end of the 10 years they installs would have to start all over again. As the first batteries will be approaching end of life. I'm not saying that this is the wrong approach, just that it isn't a one and done activity and that the useful life is less than industrial large scale options.

 

[jhn_]

Yeah I noticed that too. In true Tesla style the web page was written quickly without actually checking their work

 

[sunwarriors]

I think a lot of people wouldn't mind helping the environment, but like charlesj comment above, this does everything to help IOU (Investor owned Utilities), with $0 downside for them.

You add in the lobbying of IOUs to completely eliminate NEM1.0/2.0 (AB 1139), with an attempt to tack on $75-100 monthly charges minimum across the board for all solar owners, and I can see/feel why I/most folks are a bit skeptical of these types of plans that benefits utilities 100% (they pay you NEM rates at best, and avoid firing up their higher cost plants).

A lot these problems with PG&E I feel were because they simply didn't invest enough in past years and now, blame everyone else rates must go up because as a for profit utility/company, they didn't invest to maintain their equipment. From articles I've read, even though SDG&E is bad too, after the wildfires in 2007, they spent a lot more and aren't as worst off vs. PG&E in terms of their grid vs. fire risk.

 

[Electrph]

I understand the benefit to the grid and to the environment, but the state of California and SCE gave me nothing, and after federal tax credit, my system is costing 30K. (In fact a good chunk of that is state sales tax!) I am already struggling to make a 8-9 year payback work. So if participating in this costs me even more money, I am out.

reading through this thread i bristle a bit at some implying that those reluctant to participate are "just not getting it or dont see the big picture" .. thats not necessarily the case .. we all have diff financial situations / diff amount of excess (if any) pw storage each day and many have put a big chunk of their assets into solar / PW(s) .. many of these same people are net zero users or net producers and i feel that is being dismissed
i have no issue with the tesla vision of the combined use of PW i do have issue with giving even more to help the utilities who have miss managed for so many years .. i know there is a bigger picture here .. it is not that complicated to grasp and i do hope it succeeds down the line but i also think those of us who are net zero or net producers have nothing to apologize for in not participating

 

[charlesj]

And at the end of the 10 years they installs would have to start all over again. As the first batteries will be approaching end of life. ...

You mean that 10 years is it or just the warranty is 10 years? Are there batteries out there yet that are 10 years old?
perhaps it will last a longer?

 

[charlesj]

....

A lot these problems with PG&E I feel were because they simply didn't invest enough in past years and now, blame everyone else rates must go up because as a for profit utility/company, they didn't invest to maintain their equipment. From articles I've read, even though SDG&E is bad too, after the wildfires in 2007, they spent a lot more and aren't as worst off vs. PG&E in terms of their grid vs. fire risk.

I would add also lack of maintenance, hence that gas explosion in San Bruno a number of years ago. Then the fires.

 

[ElectricCyclist]

I have to say that I really enjoy that so many people are passionate about this topic and I appreciate all the view points and looking forward to seeing results from tests that Tesla provides and data to show what type of impact it might of made.

I have to say again though that the energy business in California is complicated but this VPP doesn't make Tesla money from what I read and really doesn't make a Utility money because the higher prices of energy flow through to all customers bills. Investor Owned Utilities PGE,SCE,SDG&E make an agreed upon rate of return on new assets installed such as poles, wires, transformers etc.

If you believe opting into this VPP would hurt you financially maybe it isn't right for you but if you don't think it will my opinion is atm you don't have much to lose and could see how it operates a few times and turn it off if you don't like it.

 

[MJ_CA_2019]

I have to say that I really enjoy that so many people are passionate about this topic and I appreciate all the view points and looking forward to seeing results from tests that Tesla provides and data to show what type of impact it might of made.

I have to say again though that the energy business in California is complicated but this VPP doesn't make Tesla money from what I read and really doesn't make a Utility money because the higher prices of energy flow through to all customers bills. Investor Owned Utilities PGE,SCE,SDG&E make an agreed upon rate of return on new assets installed such as poles, wires, transformers etc.

If you believe opting into this VPP would hurt you financially maybe it isn't right for you but if you don't think it will my opinion is atm you don't have much to lose and could see how it operates a few times and turn it off if you don't like it.

After looking at my usage I feel like it will only increase my ability to price arbitrage.
If I felt it would require me to draw from the grid at peak rates I wouldn't do it.

That's why I decided to enable and monitor what happens.

 

[RKCRLR]

I'm a net producer so unless they provide compensation beyond NEM credits there isn't a financial incentive for me to participate when compensated ~$0.03/kWh.
Additionally, there is the additional wear on the Powerwalls. The Powerwall 2 is warranted for 37.8 MWh of throughput when used in something other than self consumption/backup mode. I realize that most use the Powerwalls in self consumption/backup mode but this gives you an idea of the Powerwall design life.
Assuming that it costs ~$10,000 to replace a Powerwall that means it costs $0.26 for every kWh of throughput. So, to make if financially viable, the compensation would need to cover the price the utility is charging you for the power during that period plus the efficiency loss plus the additional wear on the Powerwall.

Having said all that I may participate if it is only a rare event that the utility needs to draw from the Powerwalls to do my part to prevent a blackout. But I'd need more compensation for me to participate if it were to be a common occurrence.

 

[Zabe]

I'm a net producer so unless they provide compensation beyond NEM credits there isn't a financial incentive for me to participate when compensated ~$0.03/kWh.
Additionally, there is the additional wear on the Powerwalls. The Powerwall 2 is warranted for 37.8 MWh of throughput when used in something other than self consumption/backup mode. I realize that most use the Powerwalls in self consumption/backup mode but this gives you an idea of the Powerwall design life.
Assuming that it costs ~$10,000 to replace a Powerwall that means it costs $0.26 for every kWh of throughput. So, to make if financially viable, the compensation would need to cover the price the utility is charging you for the power during that period plus the efficiency loss plus the additional wear on the Powerwall.

Having said all that I may participate if it is only a rare event that the utility needs to draw from the Powerwalls to do my part to prevent a blackout. But I'd need more compensation for me to participate if it were to be a common occurrence.

They are warranted to be good for 70% capacity after 37.8 MWh of throughput not that they will have to be replaced. Your cost per KWh throughput is way too high. I will agree I would not sign up for the VPP without compensation. You are doing more than most for the grid during an emergency by just using the batteries to serve your own load. It looks to the utility as though you have shut off all your load which of course is super helpful.

 

[Zorg]

I am guessing (sorry if I am repeating something that has already been said), that Tesla is releasing now as a proof of concept. If it works out well this year, then they can go out to the CPUC to ask for a financial incentive.

 

[Zabe]

I am guessing (sorry if I am repeating something that has already been said), that Tesla is releasing now as a proof of concept. If it works out well this year, then they can go out to the CPUC to ask for a financial incentive.

They have the proof of concept as they have been running one in Australia for a while. In California as far as I know Tesla would need to go to a utility like PG&E and sign an agreement to provide this service.

 

[Zorg]

They have the proof of concept as they have been running one in Australia for a while. In California as far as I know Tesla would need to go to a utility like PG&E and sign an agreement to provide this service.

Agreed, but if they can demonstrate the value, it outs them in a better position to negotiate an agreement next year.

 

[RKCRLR]

They are warranted to be good for 70% capacity after 37.8 MWh of throughput not that they will have to be replaced. Your cost per KWh throughput is way too high. I will agree I would not sign up for the VPP without compensation. You are doing more than most for the grid during an emergency by just using the batteries to serve your own load. It looks to the utility as though you have shut off all your load which of course is super helpful.

The aggregate throughput is independent o the 70% capacity after 10 years and is a total (at least the way it is stated in the warranty). However, I'm only using it as a design life number and I agree it is likely conservative. But, unless Tesla publishes a different number or actual testing is done independently, it is the only number we have that monetizes wear based on usage.

 

[Zabe]

The aggregate throughput is independent o the 70% capacity after 10 years and is a total (at least the way it is stated in the warranty). However, I'm only using it as a design life number and I agree it is likely conservative. But, unless Tesla publishes a different number or actual testing is done independently, it is the only number we have that monetizes wear based on usage.

Yes I see that now looking at the warranty again. I was thrown off by the 70% at 10 years. I hope these things aren't junkers after 38 MWh's. If they are $0.26 KWh for storage is more than the PG&E E-1 rate for energy, DOH!