$203 implies 101.5 kWh which at a Tesla Super Charger at $0.28 would be $28.42 or with higher home peak rates of $0.50 would be $50.75.
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Tesla Virtual Power Plant in CA
- Thread starter power.saver
- Start date
Electrph
Member
Are SCE customers in CA eligible for this latest program or only PG&E ?
i dont see the option at all in my app (i assume it would be under settings > powerwall
SCE is different. There is a demand response program that pays $2/kWh, but you have to be in a CCA.
Electrph
Member
oh yea i knew about that one was wondering if they had the vpp thru tesla at all with this latest versionSCE is different. There is a demand response program that pays $2/kWh, but you have to be in a CCA.
The program information says that you can opt out of an event when you receive the notification, so if you are thinking that you want to keep the Powerwall full due to the potential for a power outage then you can.
The part that gives me some unease is how my "typical" usage is being determined. I didn't participate in the beta program last year as there was even less information and those that did simply received a check at the end of the beta period. I hope that there is more transparency this year with at least a monthly statement.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I don't think that is anything more than if you exported, or had exported, with the settings you had, you would see this much money.
I found some documentation on this here: Customer FAQ - Emergency Load Reduction Program (ELRP)
In particular, this is the way customers directly enrolled in the ELRP are compensated:
Other links:
The ELRP program: Emergency Load Reduction Program
Summer Reliability: Summer Reliability
This actually seems very similar to what OhmConnect offered a few years ago when I was with them. At the time, negative draw was not supported, but the same 10 previous weekday or 4 previous weekend day baseline was used.
I don't think it's a given that Tesla's compensation will necessarily match this calculation, but I think it's more likely than not that the baseline calculation will be similar to what's listed here.
Thanks for posting this. So to summarize the "typical" calculation:
- Energy Baseline (EB) = Hourly average for the event period for the 10 previous weekdays if the event is a weekday or the 4 previous weekend or holiday days if the event is a weekend or holiday. Days that had an event or power outage are excluded
- Day-Of Adjustment Value (DOAV) = 1.0 as it is extremely like you have been exporting during the 4 hours before the event else a ratio based on the first 3 of the 4 hours before event for the day and the baseline days
- Adjusted Energy Baseline (AEB aka Typical) = EB * DOAV or 0 if EB is less than zero
This seems like a reasonable method to calculate "typical usage" as it is based on your trailing usage for the same hours in the days right before the event.
Interestingly if during the baseline days you were running off of your Powerwalls and exporting your solar this isn't held against you and your entire exports (solar+Powerwall) are eligible for the ELPR credit of $2/kWh. That might seem too good to be true, but since your Powerwalls are splitting their output between powering the house and exporting to the grid maybe it isn't that much of benefit unless you also cut back on your house load and your Powerwalls might get drained to their reserve level before the event concludes and now you need to import.
My suspicion is that the phrase "there is no AEB" means that the unadjusted baseline is used rather than a baseline of 0. That is, there is no Day-Of Adjustment applied to net exporters. The Day-Of Adjustment seems to be a factor that favors the consumer and represents how much more energy is being used on the event day due to environmental factors (e.g. temperature).
skepticcyclist
Member
This was an option up until about a month ago when it was a BETA.
I've previously written in detail about Ohmconnect in another thread somewhere, somewhat negatively at the time, after they made big changes to their program a year ago. But wanted to offer some comparison for those looking at other Demand Response options, esp with the more recent Powerwall features like Export Everything.
Nominally, reducing your baseline usage by 1 kwh (by conserving or exporting) in Ohmconnect is worth about $1.10 in cash (via PayPal). However, with judicious choice of rewards (e.g. Amazon gift cards, good as cash IMO) and hitting some easy bonus multipliers, you can stretch that into about $1.40/kwh. So not quite the $2/kwh of the Tesla VPP, but not that far off either.
A big difference might come in the timing of events though. I've had about 60-70 hours of OhmHours the past 12 months, more in the summer for sure, but still typically 1x/week throughout the year. Sounds like the Tesla VPP will only be active six months of the year (May-Oct), with up to 60 hours - question though is will it actually call for that much each year, that would be 2x/week with one hour events, though could be fewer but longer multi-hour events.
Another big difference might come in the baseline. The baseline calcs appear similar in both. Ohmconnect does presently allow negative baselines, with Powerwall it's not difficult to reduce below a negative baseline by triggering export. If the Tesla VPP indeed zeros out a negative baseline, that's huge, esp is you're already load-shifting daily, which creates a huge negative baseline - I'm somewhat surprised that the VPP rules would allow it, as you get a huge benefit for no real reduction in your demand compared to previous days, but great if they do.
Which leads to ease of automation. The key with Ohmconnect is you have to game your baseline properly. If you already arbitrage with Export Everything, your baseline is hugely negative and you don't gain anything with OhmHours. If you're not doing Export Everything daily, you do have to trigger it manually during every OhmHour (OhmConnect already has integration into to Tesla API's, for example to stop EV charging, but they haven't yet automated Exporting from Powerwalls). With the VPP, if they don't zero out the negative baseline, again you'll have no benefit. If they do zero the negative baselines, then the VPP events will fully automate the Export Everything during the event, making it hands-free simple.
As a low-baseline no-A/C solar user with no Powerwall (yet), I actually can't make much from demand response by reducing load (e.g. cutting 50% of 400W in summertime nets only $0.25 an hour with OhmHours). Interestingly though, while OhmConnect nerfed some bonuses like streak multipliers, they increased rewards for automation - so by automating my Ecobee thermostats and Kasa outlets, I made about $200 in the past 12 months mostly through credits for each active smart device.
TL;DR big differences may be:
-$2 vs $1.40 per kwh
-zeroing negative baselines
-summertime vs year-round events
-automated vs manual
Nominally, reducing your baseline usage by 1 kwh (by conserving or exporting) in Ohmconnect is worth about $1.10 in cash (via PayPal). However, with judicious choice of rewards (e.g. Amazon gift cards, good as cash IMO) and hitting some easy bonus multipliers, you can stretch that into about $1.40/kwh. So not quite the $2/kwh of the Tesla VPP, but not that far off either.
A big difference might come in the timing of events though. I've had about 60-70 hours of OhmHours the past 12 months, more in the summer for sure, but still typically 1x/week throughout the year. Sounds like the Tesla VPP will only be active six months of the year (May-Oct), with up to 60 hours - question though is will it actually call for that much each year, that would be 2x/week with one hour events, though could be fewer but longer multi-hour events.
Another big difference might come in the baseline. The baseline calcs appear similar in both. Ohmconnect does presently allow negative baselines, with Powerwall it's not difficult to reduce below a negative baseline by triggering export. If the Tesla VPP indeed zeros out a negative baseline, that's huge, esp is you're already load-shifting daily, which creates a huge negative baseline - I'm somewhat surprised that the VPP rules would allow it, as you get a huge benefit for no real reduction in your demand compared to previous days, but great if they do.
Which leads to ease of automation. The key with Ohmconnect is you have to game your baseline properly. If you already arbitrage with Export Everything, your baseline is hugely negative and you don't gain anything with OhmHours. If you're not doing Export Everything daily, you do have to trigger it manually during every OhmHour (OhmConnect already has integration into to Tesla API's, for example to stop EV charging, but they haven't yet automated Exporting from Powerwalls). With the VPP, if they don't zero out the negative baseline, again you'll have no benefit. If they do zero the negative baselines, then the VPP events will fully automate the Export Everything during the event, making it hands-free simple.
As a low-baseline no-A/C solar user with no Powerwall (yet), I actually can't make much from demand response by reducing load (e.g. cutting 50% of 400W in summertime nets only $0.25 an hour with OhmHours). Interestingly though, while OhmConnect nerfed some bonuses like streak multipliers, they increased rewards for automation - so by automating my Ecobee thermostats and Kasa outlets, I made about $200 in the past 12 months mostly through credits for each active smart device.
TL;DR big differences may be:
-$2 vs $1.40 per kwh
-zeroing negative baselines
-summertime vs year-round events
-automated vs manual
I just enrolled. App says "answer may take a week or more". Despite my staunch dislike of PG&E, It makes sense to use energy storage for peak grid load reduction. Hopefully using local energy storage to support grid stability will also give leverage when making future decisions about how solar/energy customers are treated. If I understand correctly, I will be able to opt-out of any specific event and/or can set the reserve at any level. Its normally set to 80% (3 power walls). So, I can reduce to 30% during an event and still have almost one powerwall in reserve. This is also despite the fact that we just lost power for three days due to Woodside/emerald hills fire in the SF bay area (The good news is that powerwalls functioned flawlessly). When I think of worst-case scenario, like draining to 30% and then grid goes down, that would still leave enough to run appliances, but probably have to leave the A.C. off until solar starts again. Chances of this scenario are fairly low, but unfortunately, a peak grid event is also exactly when a transformer is likely to blow.
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
I think there is a lot to watch here, especially for us that zero out (or now with EE), are already negative during peak periods, when these events are almost always going to be called.
And in Tesla's case, the term VPP is kind of a misnomer. Yes you could just reduce your power during these events from your normal base line by shifting load with the Powerwalls, but even without EE, Tesla has the ability to pull power from your PWs into the grid. This is a REAL power plant, not virtual.
It will be interesting to see how Tesla does the scheduling of all of this based on individual locations return capacity etc. It's already interesting to see what happens individually with EE during a reoccurring, known set of conditions.
I don't have a Tesla EV, but I get your point. Just seems like a pretty paltry payout for giving up control of my powerwall stored energy
Well you never actually give up control. The event is scheduled and then you can opt-out of participating if you didn't want to export anything. Getting $2/kWh is a lot more than any compensation you will get from any regular export.
The estimated number is based on your current reserve setting and current usage. My estimate was $9 based on my reserve at 80% which was is typically reached during peak. On event days I plan on dropping it to 10% which should export 18.9 kWh for $37.80/event.
I don't see the application pending anymore, it just says "You've enrolled your Powerwall in the Tesla .......".
aesculus
Still Trying to Figure This All Out
After a week mine came back as rejected because it said my numbers did not match with my powerwalls?
I was able to re-apply (99% sure I put in the correct numbers first time), so we'll see what the next week brings. (I pulled the numbers from the B/W bill and they were the same as what is on the blue bill).
I was able to re-apply (99% sure I put in the correct numbers first time), so we'll see what the next week brings. (I pulled the numbers from the B/W bill and they were the same as what is on the blue bill).
onautopilot
Member
I put in for the program the first day it was announced. I was just approved today. So like 5 days. I live alone, and spend a lot of time away from traveling for work. So I’m happy to put my equipment to use (3x pw, 10k solar). Maybe more for the novelty rather than compensation. Here’s what the tesla app looks like.
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