JupiterMan
Active Member
L2 timeout issues are a UNECE thing. if others don't do them it may be they are not following the rules?
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[uk] UltraSonic Sensors removal/TV replacement performance
- Thread starter randompixel
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MrBadger
Badger out
Or maybe just accept that others handle it better than Tesla?
JupiterMan
Active Member
I was asked for an example. I gave one. lane changes (unconfirmed) is one of them.
Current UNECE build with confirmed lane change, gap requirement and time out would be an inhibitor to Beta in UK I would think, difficult to see FSDBeta working in UK with those handicaps.
JupiterMan
Active Member
timeout rules and how Tesla deals with them are not in the US build. so yes, I believe it is a UNECE restriction.
How/why other manufacturers get round those rules is a question for them or the regulators, not Tesla.
Zilla91
Active Member
What he said.
I can tell you how; by having a better implementation that doesn’t take an age to change lanes
JupiterMan
Active Member
the UNECE rules on lane changes run to many pages, it is not just the confirmation, it is the lateral movement, the gap requirement, the timing to start the manoeuvre, the timing to complete the monouvre, the acceleration during the manoeuvre and much more.I'd agree summon and smart summon are well and truly cock blocked in Europe, but FSDbeta not so much. Lane change needs simple confirmation - already implemented in EAP. It shouldn't be a huge task to program Euro rules into FSDbeta if they had the desire to do so, imho. Maybe they just can't figure out roundabouts though!
On an open motorway, yes less of an issue, but to change lane on a roundabout or though a tight junction within these rules, forget it, the UNECE rules would not work.
Simple roundabouts seem to be getting on well in the US builds, although I would like to see more multilane roundabouts, roundabouts with traffic controls, mini roundabouts, and multi-mini-roundabouts... these european variants I have not seen Beta deal with as yet and will be great to see how it deals with them.
JupiterMan
Active Member
Like I say, the time delay to start the change, the speed of lateral movement and the time out are all UNECE rules.
Tesla are following the rules..., bloody annoying rules I agree, but that is UNECE, not Tesla.
If you look at NOA on US builds on youtube, it is much, much better.
LiamPope
Member
Your whole argument seems to be 'wicked unreasonable Euro rules prevent poor Tesla from activating their fantastic FSDbeta in Europe, poor Tesla!' To me that sounds like saying a US appliance manufacturer is prevented from selling their products in Europe as we have different plugs! Well, kinda true, but all they have to do is provide Europe compliant plugs! Likewise with FSD, Tesla is only blocked from the zero-effort path of simply activating US FSD in Europe. They aren't really blocked - they just need to comply with Euro rules.
You and others act like this is utterly impossible - Euro rules must have been written by madmen with the single goal of preventing autonomous driving ever happening. This is simply not true! We've been through one example above - lateral acceleration limits - the Euro value is perfectly sensible and not in any way an unreasonable hurdle. And so it is with other Euro rules for the most part. Based on reasonable safety standards and in line with competent human performance.
It seems to me more unwillingness on Tesla's part to modify the operating parameters of FSDbeta to work within Euro specs and test/optimise it than that they are just being cock blocked by mean Euro regs. I hope it's just a matter of time before they get on it. That said I'm also somewhat of the opinion that Vision could well prove to be a technological dead end and they will have to eat their words and backpedal to stay in the game. I don't really care - I'm getting a M3 primarily to drive it myself and see all this as a gimmick for now. I really wouldn't have minded SOME COCKING PARKING SENSORS, THOUGH!!!
Two things fro my perspective.
1. Tesla could implement a solution for those backward countries like Norway and the UK that would go up to but not beyond the UNECE limits. It might mean that full self driving (sic) is not as effective as the US version, but would allow us to all see just how good it is and how far the regs constrain its operational effectiveness.
If those German manufacturers with their level 3 solutions are breaking the rules - renowned as Germans are for being cavalier with regulatory requirements as Tesla Berlin's issues have shown - at least we can see what competitive advantage they have compared to the very strict interpretation and implementation that Tesla has adopted.
2. There appears to me to be a clear reason why Musk is diversifying his investment portfolio recently. The departure of Karpathy and the announcements about radar removal removal, USS removal etc reveal a major issue - vision doesn't work and never will, the company is at a crossroads with engineers saying it will never lead to FSD but Musk putting cheese in his ears.
Or, you know, just accept Tesla are a bit crap?
JupiterMan
Active Member
Not really. In the USA any manufacturer can launch their own level 2 self driving aid themselves without any prior approvals, UNECE self driving rules do not apply. It is then down to the local regulator to restrict it or ban it (or whatever) after the fact.
In the UK/EU it is the other way around you need to get the regulators to approve it first before you can put it on any customer vehicle.
For a technology like FSDBeta where it needs miles driven to learn and improve, it lends itself much more to the US model than to the UK one, so whilst we see it on US streets now, we will likely not see it in UNECE territories until we have progressed further down the march of the 9s.
So no, your plug analogy doesn't really work.
Yes, a guy posted that his replacement for an M3 was shite as it did not tell him how far away he was from his garage wall. Which is a big thing in North America as they somewhat bizarrely use their garages as a place for parking cars.
JupiterMan
Active Member
I agree, as a stop gap, this would be great to see, and would probably drive Tesla revenue in UNECE countries higher as well
We can agree on something CWT3LR
100% disagree with this bit though.
Kaparthy has done a recent interview after leaving Tesla where he further praises the Vision approach and thinks it is only a matter of time before others copy.
The UNECE Rules were specifically written to allow autosteer and lane change on motorways or equivalent roads, but not to allow self-driving on other types of road. Thats why they have a specific Working Party on Autonomous and Connected Vehicles to build new regulations as technology matures. We do not currently have a regulatory framework to allow self-driving in urban environments. Go and read the UNECE regulations and minutes.
Santa Barbara, CA. Turns out it was the dealership manager herself who had to call corporate. She shrugged and said “we don’t know”. “The cars just started coming in this way.” Now, a brand new Model Y, with just 44 miles (!!). on it and less than 24 hours of “ownership”, has a “trade in value “ from Tesla of $55,400.Wow dude you have the worst dealership ever!! The 'big announcement' was all over the internet and Tesla's own website and couldn't be much clearer! Ultrasonic sensors (aka parking sensors) are gone. Park Assist (aka the lines and beepy beeps feature you are referring to) is also gone until they figure out how to do something like it with the cameras. Unbelievable dealership staff dont know this!! Name and shame! Are you in Santa Barbara, UK, or Santa Barbara Ireland?
Double check the return policy. Somehow I remember that you had 100mi to return it but I may be wrong or things have changed.
LOOKS like carpathy does not drive car at all or is a complete moron and has no understanding what is required and what is not.I agree, as a stop gap, this would be great to see, and would probably drive Tesla revenue in UNECE countries higher as well
We can agree on something CWT3LR
100% disagree with this bit though.
Kaparthy has done a recent interview after leaving Tesla where he further praises the Vision approach and thinks it is only a matter of time before others copy.
At least the car does not get features removed…You’ll have to pay per foot the car travels
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