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Tesla vs. semi crash reported 03.11.21

Stingray.Don

Member
Apr 13, 2020
26
24
Indianapolis
A skirt (in this case) or a solid cement median divider (in the Mountain View fatal Model X Autopilot case) won't help.

That's because current Tesla's automation system is still using RADAR which is designed to label moving obstacles running in the same direction as Tesla are dangerous.

If the obstacles are stationary or moving but in a different direction (Lateral Turn Across Path--LTAP, in this case), then the current RADAR is designed to ignore them and the car would go ahead and slam right into them as proven in previous Autopilot accidents (not just fatal but also non-fatal Autopilot accidents too: Police cars, fire trucks, vans...).

That's why other companies are using LIDARS for those above cases.
In this case, AP was not even engaged, so the radar nor AP cannot be blamed in this case. I don't think there have been any T-bone accidents while on AP for the past two years, so I don't know that the issue still exists in the current software. In fact, the V9 FSD beta release coming in April will not even use RADAR.
 

M109Rider

Active Member
Apr 8, 2018
1,529
1,575
Kitchener, Ontario
I would agree that Tesla's FSD has kinda become a trademark at this point. It's basically what Tesla calls their advanced driver assist package. The only issue is that the name "full self-driving" does mean full self-driving in English, hence why there is controversy. A name like "hyper drive" does not mean full self-driving.

So let’s call this controversy what it is. The only reason controversy exists here, is because someone wishes to use it as a negative against Tesla.
It has no other rational ground.

FSD is just a name that describes a product/feature. It’s certainly labelled with all the necessary warnings, so that anyone that chooses to use it, will know it’s intended use. Since that is done, who cares what the name is ?
Unless you want to create controversy of course. :)

I have not heard one peep from consumers calling out flooring manufacturers for calling their Laminate click flooring, “Floating Floors”.
This clearly implies (in English), that the floor defies the laws of gravity, and no longer needs a structure under it.
Thankfully, they include installation instructions that illustrate that it is in fact intended to be installed over a structure of some sort. ....

Maybe there is wide spread controversy, over this and I just missed it.
 

mark95476

Member
Jun 21, 2020
999
542
Bay Area CA
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CapeOne

Member
Jun 14, 2016
810
509
New England
I have not heard one peep from consumers calling out flooring manufacturers for calling their Laminate click flooring, “Floating Floors”.
This clearly implies (in English), that the floor defies the laws of gravity, and no longer needs a structure under it.
Thankfully, they include installation instructions that illustrate that it is in fact intended to be installed over a structure of some sort. ....

There are various definitions of floating that do not refer to defying the laws of gravity or something no longer need structure under it, some of which could apply to a floating floor e.g., "not secured in place, unattached" or "designed or constructed to operate smoothly or without vibration" or "having a soft suspension greatly reducing vibrations between the suspended part and its support", etc.
 

2101Guy

Active Member
Jan 6, 2020
1,427
1,232
USA
"The most recent probe involved a “violent” crash last week of a Tesla sedan and a tractor trailer in Detroit. Detroit Police Assistant Chief David LeValley said Tuesday at a news briefing “that all indications” are that the Tesla was not in Autopilot at the time of the crash, but the investigation was still underway. He cited statements made by the driver and video showing “evasive maneuvers being conducted just before the crash.”


 
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GargantulaKon

Member
Mar 16, 2021
10
14
Pennsylvania
This is another attempt to make the Tesla autopilot look bad. I read the article and since the driver has a suspended license, we can probably safely assume that they are not a very good driver even without autopilot. It's the fault of the driver for not paying attention.
 
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rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,349
1,618
Orange County, CA
A skirt (in this case) or a solid cement median divider (in the Mountain View fatal Model X Autopilot case) won't help.

That's because current Tesla's automation system is still using RADAR which is designed to label moving obstacles running in the same direction as Tesla are dangerous.

If the obstacles are stationary or moving but in a different direction (Lateral Turn Across Path--LTAP, in this case), then the current RADAR is designed to ignore them and the car would go ahead and slam right into them as proven in previous Autopilot accidents (not just fatal but also non-fatal Autopilot accidents too: Police cars, fire trucks, vans...).

That's why other companies are using LIDARS for those above cases.
You do realize that AEB (when not on AP) does not stop the vehicle, right? What automation, given the car driven manually, would you opine as something that could have changed the outcome.

Accidents like that usually have a 100% fatality. It's to Tesla's credit that both occupants survived.
 
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M109Rider

Active Member
Apr 8, 2018
1,529
1,575
Kitchener, Ontario
There are various definitions of floating that do not refer to defying the laws of gravity or something no longer need structure under it, some of which could apply to a floating floor e.g., "not secured in place, unattached" or "designed or constructed to operate smoothly or without vibration" or "having a soft suspension greatly reducing vibrations between the suspended part and its support", etc.

I think you’re missing the point. :)

Also, floating doesn’t have that many definitions. You can chose to use the word in any context you want, but the definition isn’t that broad. :)
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,559
7,363
Visalia, CA
You do realize that AEB (when not on AP) does not stop the vehicle, right?...

There were many tailed AEB demonstrations before but some looked pretty good:

2013 Volvo Truck on the test track


2017 Volvo Truck almost hit the small student jumping into the truck's line of sight at the last seconds.


Many see demos or advertisements of AEB from other brands and they may think that Tesla's AEB can do the same or better.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,559
7,363
Visalia, CA
...What automation, given the car driven manually, would you opine as something that could have changed the outcome....

I was answering the question: " I wonder if there will ever be legislation to have the skirts mandatory on trailers."

I answered that it makes no difference in this manual driving case nor does it make any difference in RADAR-dependent Autopilot/FSD system that Tesla has now.

To fix the manual driving issue, the driver needs to be attentive and brake a long way before closing in too near to the truck. Also, Tesla can add a driver nanny interior camera system to monitor the driver's attentiveness as requested by NTSB so that the car can be automatically impounded as needed either with Autopilot or not.

To fix the current RADAR Autopilot/FSD issue, other brands claim the need to add LIDAR. Musk is thinking to switch off from RADAR completely and go all cameras starting a few days from now in April in response to criticism from pro-LIDAR :

"Next significant release will be in April. Going with pure vision — not even using radar. This is the way to real-world AI."
 

rxlawdude

Active Member
Jul 10, 2015
2,349
1,618
Orange County, CA
I was answering the question: " I wonder if there will ever be legislation to have the skirts mandatory on trailers."

I answered that it makes no difference in this manual driving case nor does it make any difference in RADAR-dependent Autopilot/FSD system that Tesla has now.

To fix the manual driving issue, the driver needs to be attentive and brake a long way before closing in too near to the truck. Also, Tesla can add a driver nanny interior camera system to monitor the driver's attentiveness as requested by NTSB so that the car can be automatically impounded as needed either with Autopilot or not.

To fix the current RADAR Autopilot/FSD issue, other brands claim the need to add LIDAR. Musk is thinking to switch off from RADAR completely and go all cameras starting a few days from now in April in response to criticism from pro-LIDAR :

"Next significant release will be in April. Going with pure vision — not even using radar. This is the way to real-world AI."
Those skirts are quite flimsy, as seen in the crash here. The rear of trailers have an ICC bumper that is designed to prevent decapitation accidents. Yet the sides are allowed to be thin and not reinforced. The result is obvious.

I have heard that in the EU, the skirts are actually reinforced like the rear bumper.
 

qdeathstar

Active Member
May 17, 2019
2,415
2,036
VB
Those skirts are quite flimsy, as seen in the crash here. The rear of trailers have an ICC bumper that is designed to prevent decapitation accidents. Yet the sides are allowed to be thin and not reinforced. The result is obvious.

I have heard that in the EU, the skirts are actually reinforced like the rear bumper.

The downside of heavy reinforced siderails is the hit to fuel efficiency/increased pollution for every truck to prevent an extremely rare accident.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
9,392
11,269
San Diego
It was bothering me, so FWIW, speed limit on Ford St is 30mph, and I couldn't find one for Waterman (so it's probably 25mph). Visibility is obscured for traffic on both roads, for the directions these vehicles were traveling.

Seems like the Tesla was probably traveling in excess of 45mph, maybe a bit more slowly at time of impact though. I guess we'll know at some point.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,559
7,363
Visalia, CA
In this case, AP was not even engaged, so the radar nor AP cannot be blamed in this case...

It's true that additional info revealed that the driver did not use Autopilot, but with all Tesla cars produced since about September 2014 on, they still have included with no-extra-charge basic "Active Safety Features" and the particular 2 below do depend on RADAR even for those who do buy nor use Autopilot:

  • Automatic Emergency Braking: Detects cars or obstacles that the car may impact and applies the brakes accordingly
  • Front Collision Warning: Warns of impending collisions with slower moving or stationary cars

It'll be interesting to see from the car log that how good the RADAR is for activating those 2 above features in this case.
 

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