-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
As I understand having it plugged in will negatecrhe issue as the battery warns itself to keep from freezing. However the warranty wording doesn't say that...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I said it before, what happens at -30C is that the electrolyte in the battery freezes (it's the freezing point of most commercial lithium-ion battery electrolyte). At that point your battery would need thawing and there might be damage to the cell enclosure (cracks) from the freezing. If you ever had a frozen lead acid battery and had it fail afterwards from a cracked enclosure, it's a similar idea. The lithium batteries may tolerate it better than a lead acid battery (esp. given metal battery cells rather than plastic) but in general it's likely not a good idea to have it down to those temperatures if it can be avoided.
Also if you have it at very low SOCs, the cold weather will drop the voltage down and if you discharge the battery at that point you may have an over-discharge that damages the battery cells (esp. with a pack imbalance that has a few weak cells in the first place).
The 24 hour window is likely Tesla's estimate of the point where cells may be cold soaked to -30C degrees (the vehicle temp doesn't matter, it's the cell temperatures). The Roadster has a 7 day window, but the pack is probably better insulated (it's not flat under the body of the vehicle).
I looked at Stockhom. last year the coldest it got was -4F (-30 C is -22F???). I would find a plug.
Yes last winter was not very cold. But we often go up north for skiing. So its not often below -30 in this area of sweden. But up north is probably -20 already. ;-)
- - - Updated - - -
I wonder why the following statements are not part of the warranty statement? Thoughts?
1. http://www.teslamotors.com/en_SE/blog/creating-world%E2%80%99s-best-service-and-warranty-program-0
"Unconditional warranty for Model S battery, even for user error"
"Battery Warranty
The battery pack in your car is obviously very important and expensive to replace. In developing the Model S, we took great care to ensure that the battery would protect itself, always retaining a few percent of energy. If something goes wrong, it is therefore our fault, not yours.
Except in the cases of a collision, opening of the battery pack by non-Tesla personnel or intentional abuse (lighting the pack on fire with a blowtorch is not covered!), all damage is covered by warranty, including improper maintenance or unintentionally leaving the pack at a low state of charge for years on end. The battery will be replaced at no cost by a factory reconditioned unit with an energy capacity equal to or better than the original pack before the failure occurred."
2.
http://www.teslamotors.com/en_SE/blog/mission-tesla
"Third, to reinforce how strongly we feel about the low risk of fire in our cars, we will be amending our warranty policy to cover damage due to a fire, even if due to driver error. Unless a Model S owner actively tries to destroy the car, they are covered. Our goal here is to eliminate any concern about the cost of such an event and ensure that over time the Model S has the lowest insurance cost of any car at our price point. Either our belief in the safety of our car is correct and this is a minor cost or we are wrong, in which case the right thing is for Tesla to bear the cost rather than the car buyer."
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Well, when you know it can possibly cause damage and you do it anyways, that probably falls under abuse (at the very least neglect). They only removed the low SOC condition because of the whole bricking controversy (same thing with the debris one). They also removed the condition for proper maintenance (basically the annual checkup) because people were complaining about the maintenance costs (plus the risk of damage from no maintenance isn't that high in the first place).
If damage from cold temperatures becomes a huge issue, maybe Tesla will address that condition, but in the mean time their lawyers would probably like them to follow industry convention.
If damage from cold temperatures becomes a huge issue, maybe Tesla will address that condition, but in the mean time their lawyers would probably like them to follow industry convention.
When I read the warranty statement there is no unconditional warranyt even for users errors... It clearly states that if I ignore messages i void battery warranty. Read you warranty statement and compare them to what Elon wrote on his blog. I was not thinking Cold weather here... But yes the Cold weather thing is also user error and leaving the car in minus 30 for 24 hour is probably not extremely uncommon? Just go skiing and if the resort gets a Power outage? Storms that become more common that take down the grid for longer time? Sure all this is a bit of the devils advocacy discussions I Know but still there is not a 1:1 between Elons statements and what I can read in the warranty statement.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I agree. But that's the case with most things. Executives can be loose with their language, while warranties are more precise (and written by lawyers). Sometimes it works the other way around (for example George Blankenship made it sound like you would void your warranty if you didn't buy a Tesla service plan, but that was not the case).
yepp, agree on that. time will tell regarding both warranty and cold climate with the battery not connected to the grid. 24 hours is not very long if there are issues with the grid and similar. couple of years ago there was some bad ice on everything that killed the grid. if i did not have a garage I would actually think twice buying the car when reading this.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I think it all comes down to how many customers they would lose that might park their cars outside for more than 24 hours in -30C temperatures. I think probably not that many. However, the other issues (low SOC, no maintenance, fire) can happen to anyone, anywhere.
In the areas that get -30 and colder there isn't a lot of daylight for solar to do anything. What daylight there is has to travel though a lot of atmosphere because the sun is low in the sky, so there's not all that much energy left when it hits the solar panel. Of course, it evens out in the summer when the days are very long, but that doesn't do much good in the winter.
in Sweden you need to check cities in the North. the climate has become warmer and around the stockholm area its very seldom -30. pretty sure there are cities with -30 for 24 hours but could be wrong. it might be an uncommon scenario. just thst if it do happen and i won an iCE it will start again when its warmer. amy Tesla could be dead without any warranty. more of a bad stomach feelong thing than a plausible scenario maybe? if its so uncommon then I suggest covering it in the warranty of the car! ;-)
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
I think it's always warmer in cities and at least around here outside of town it can easily be 5 degrees lower. Here's an example:
Weather History for Pskov, Russia | Weather Underground
and take the next days. This is in a town where the temperature is -31..-26. Move out of town to countryside and that's -35..-30 for well over 24h in 2006 in January. That was a simple google and I think around that time I was in the forest doing photography and it was -37..-33 that day outside of town. It got tough with phtography as the lubricant used in the lens went stiff and the batteries lasted about 5-10 minutes or ca 10 shots inside the camera, then I had to rotate them back to inside pockets to warm and take another one (had three batteries).
And Estonia isn't that far north, Finland, Sweden, Norway northern parts easily get below -30C for extended periods of time outside of towns and not everyone lives in towns.
- - - Updated - - -
Bah, the link isn't the one I had. You should check for Voru, Estonia (it's actually Võru, but wunderground and others don't take õ
). But even Tartu that is far bigger had low temperatures that day: http://www.wunderground.com/history/wmo/26242/2006/1/20/DailyHistory.html
I checked the northern city of Kiruna, Sweden and this is what i got:
Avg daily temp last ten years, Kiruna:
We had average daily temperatures below -30 C (-22F) in one year for the last ten years, that was in 2012, early February for 2,5-3 days.
If we look closer we see the lowest temperatures those days were below -30 C
But the same days we had highs above -30 C for those days also
So constant 24h below -30C (-22F) we have not had in ten years at least in Kiruna but we have had 2-3 days of mean temperatures below -30C.
Data is from "ESNQ" weather station Kiruna Airport,the northernmost airport in Sweden.
Avg daily temp last ten years, Kiruna:
We had average daily temperatures below -30 C (-22F) in one year for the last ten years, that was in 2012, early February for 2,5-3 days.
If we look closer we see the lowest temperatures those days were below -30 C
But the same days we had highs above -30 C for those days also
So constant 24h below -30C (-22F) we have not had in ten years at least in Kiruna but we have had 2-3 days of mean temperatures below -30C.
Data is from "ESNQ" weather station Kiruna Airport,the northernmost airport in Sweden.
I looked at the usual suspects: Saskatoon, Winnipeg, and Grand Prairie. It seems that although -30 is fairly common for the lows, it's very uncommon for the highs. If you live on a farm in those areas, it's a different story.
One thing to think about: the number of people driving Model S under these extreme northern conditions is quite small. The number who will brick their cars due to the cold is even smaller. It is worth it to Tesla in pure public relations terms to go ahead and replace the battery pack ("under warranty") when this happens. It would be different if it were *common*, but since it's unlikely to be common, it's unlikely to be a meaningful amount of money to Tesla.
- - - Updated - - -
Out of sheer curiosity, I started trying to find places with colder weather than Kiruna. It doesn't seem to be possible to get the car below -30 C for 24 hours even in Barrow, Alaska or Alta, Norway or Spitzbergen -- you have to go further *inland*.
It seems like one place where you could void your Model S warranty is Yakutsk, Russia.
http://www.mikaelstrandberg.com/2011/01/14/yakutia-the-coldest-inhabited-place-on-earth/
Of course, *everyone* who has a car there, keeps it in a heated garage!
- - - Updated - - -
Out of sheer curiosity, I started trying to find places with colder weather than Kiruna. It doesn't seem to be possible to get the car below -30 C for 24 hours even in Barrow, Alaska or Alta, Norway or Spitzbergen -- you have to go further *inland*.
It seems like one place where you could void your Model S warranty is Yakutsk, Russia.
http://www.mikaelstrandberg.com/2011/01/14/yakutia-the-coldest-inhabited-place-on-earth/
Of course, *everyone* who has a car there, keeps it in a heated garage!
Mario Kadastik
Active Member
Here's a recent example from Finland, this is measured at the Kuusamo airport (it seems wunderground has only airport measuring stations temperature history):
Weather History for KAO, #HISTORY.statename | Weather Underground
The weekly average average temperature is -30C. If you look for example this day (and days surrounding it):
Weather History for KAO, #HISTORY.statename | Weather Underground
The mean temperature is -34C with maximum at -29C and minimum at -38C. And I'd like to point out that Kuusamo is a very popular holiday location in Finland also that the temperature is measured at the airport which has active infrastructure that usually keeps the temperature at least 1C above surrounding area. So if you had parked your car near some skiing location and the place lost power then the outside temp would have averaged below -34C probably bricking your battery and voiding warranty. And that's from just last year
Weather History for KAO, #HISTORY.statename | Weather Underground
The weekly average average temperature is -30C. If you look for example this day (and days surrounding it):
Weather History for KAO, #HISTORY.statename | Weather Underground
The mean temperature is -34C with maximum at -29C and minimum at -38C. And I'd like to point out that Kuusamo is a very popular holiday location in Finland also that the temperature is measured at the airport which has active infrastructure that usually keeps the temperature at least 1C above surrounding area. So if you had parked your car near some skiing location and the place lost power then the outside temp would have averaged below -34C probably bricking your battery and voiding warranty. And that's from just last year
Similar threads
