Tesla won't sell me a 90 kWh pack unless I give them my old pack for 12% market value

[Andyw2100]

When I inquired how they can offer to swap batteries in 90 seconds and offer a program where you can keep the battery that was swapped into your car without returning it for the price of a tank of gas, they stumbled on their words and could only come up with "well that's different". Don't see how. Typical Tesla, their way or the highway. Made no sense for them to prevent me from swapping out my battery with a newer, less degraded one. OK, I'm venting now. I'll get off the soap box.

Whomever you you made that inquiry of was not well-informed.

The battery swap program was never designed to allow you to swap your battery for another for the price of a tank of gas, while allowing you to keep the swapped battery. That would have been insane, as people could have swapped degraded batteries for better ones, as you mentioned you would have liked to have done. That program required that you make your swaps in pairs, each for about the price of a tank of gas. The first of the pair would swap out your battery for a charged loaner battery, and the second would swap that loaner battery back for your original battery, now recharged. So you get a fully charged battery each time, but wind up with your own battery in the car after the pair of swaps. Someone who failed to complete the second swap would have been charged a hefty fee, or in some other way held accountable.

At least that is my understanding of how the program was designed to work.

 

[brianman]

I'm cool with that. They can install the 90 pack and all. That's fine. I just want the 85 pack back first.

I wonder if I could buy the 90 pack and have them install it if I drop the 85 pack myself first then tow it in for the 90 install. lol.

"Dingo stole my 85 pack!"

 

[AWDtsla]

Sorry, I completely disagree. Letting non-qualified people tinker with a high voltage pack is consumer protection. Providing one to them (without the car) is negligent.

 

[GasKilla]

I really hope Tesla has this all sorted out in 10 years when I want to replace my pack.

 

[luvnMyTS]

Whomever you you made that inquiry of was not well-informed.

The battery swap program was never designed to allow you to swap your battery for another for the price of a tank of gas, while allowing you to keep the swapped battery. That would have been insane, as people could have swapped degraded batteries for better ones, as you mentioned you would have liked to have done. That program required that you make your swaps in pairs, each for about the price of a tank of gas. The first of the pair would swap out your battery for a charged loaner battery, and the second would swap that loaner battery back for your original battery, now recharged. So you get a fully charged battery each time, but wind up with your own battery in the car after the pair of swaps. Someone who failed to complete the second swap would have been charged a hefty fee, or in some other way held accountable.

At least that is my understanding of how the program was designed to work.

Let me clarify, the "price of a tank of gas" was for the luxury of being able to swap batteries in 90 seconds rather than have to wait and hour to charge. You are correct that in most cases, they expected you to swap it back on your return trip. The whole battery swapping program was unfortunately scrapped before ever really having a chance to take off. Tesla sent out a few invitations to try it and of the very few they sent it to, even fewer of those were either not interested or did not have a need to swap at Harris Ranch, which was the only place it was offered. Sad that they made a final decision based on a just 1% sampling of all Tesla owners as they only invited select people from the Los Angeles area and San Francisco area. I certainly think there would be a demand for it, especially on busy weekends. On the Tesla forum, there's a photo of 15 cars waiting in line at the Tejon Ranch supercharger. Over an hour wait just to be able to start charging. And with that many cars and all chargers full, most reported that it was only charging at a rate of 90 +/- miles per hour rather than the normal 300+. 80% charges were taking 90+ minutes. Some stated they spent a total of THREE HOURS at the charger. How much you want to bet if there was a swapping station there, all 15 cars in line would have gladly paid the $40 or $50 to swap out their batteries?? I would have!!!

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, while the typical battery swap plan was to swap in a loaner and swap back your original on the return trip, there was a provision that if you called ahead and let them know you would not be returning, they would run a diagnostic on your car to check the health of the battery in your car and have an equivalent battery waiting for you. In those cases you wouldn't be required to return the battery that was swapped into your car. Which gets back to my original point, clearly its possible to swap a battery with another used battery. Tesla had no logical reason to deny allowing me to buy my own alternate battery and swap it out. I could have picked up the used battery for around $7,000 and it had only 4,000 miles on it with virtually no degradation. After selling mine, would have likely been either a free swap or I would have picked up a few bucks. For them to tell me they were going to void my warranty if I did that is just wrong. And I clarified, they would void the entire car's warranty, not just the warranty on the battery. I could have lived with them saying they won't warranty the replacement battery, but to void my entire car's warranty because I replaced the battery on my own, when clearly at one point, they were willing to replace batteries with other used batteries is again, just Tesla flexing their "my way or the highway" muscles. I wish I didn't love the car so damn much, otherwise I'd be out! Just can't deal with that kind of attitude. And scary to think they're this way with a new company that should be kissing their customers asses to build the company. What's it going to be like when they get even more powerful??

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Welcome to the Monopoly that is Tesla. As much as I love the car and certain things about the company is as much as I absolutely hate their attitude when it comes to certain things. Tesla is very much a "my way or the highway" company. I wanted to buy a used battery for my car to replace my degraded battery. All at my own expense, they said no, we'll void your warranty if you do. I wanted to BUY next gen seats for my car. They again said No, they'll void my warranty if I do it on my own. My car's rear was sagging in back. The air suspension needed a simple adjustment. They wouldn't do it for the longest time. I said, OK, I'll do it myself. Again, NO, void warranty, Uhg!

Amazing car, but until the government gets a hold of them and forces some competition, Tesla dictates what you do with the car YOU OWN. Just have to weigh the positives and negatives and decide if you can live with their ways to get what is otherwise an amazing vehicle.

Tesla cannot void your warranty because you modify something. They can only void your warranty if you modify something that causes a failure. That is the law. But if you want your legal rights you'd probably have to be willing to sue to get them.

I don't like Tesla's business practices either. But Elon Musk's ruthlessness ix part of the reason why I think Tesla can succeed. (The other key reason being the unwillingness of other manufacturers to commit to long-distance electric.) At this point I'm hoping Tesla survives 2016 because I want a Model 3 in 2019, but I 'm hoping there's competition so Tesla has to adjust its model.

 

[whitex]

All this could be avoided if Tesla simply quoted a "85-90 pack upgrade price" rather than "90 pack" and "core". Just like the LTE upgrade, it is advertised as such and no, you cannot keep the old modem - I know, I tried .

 

[Panu]

It is expected that Tesla charges a lot for battery upgrade. I've said it before but everybody disagreed and said it's good for Tesla to offer very cheap upgrades.

In my opinion the reason is "free" Supercharging. When it's time to replace the battery it's also time to pay for the supercharging for the life of that new battery. When I've said this before everybody kept saying "no no it's for the life of the car". Yes of course but as along as Tesla has monopoly for it's batteries (which I believe is as long as there is "free" supercharging) they will make sure the supercharging costs are covered this way.

 

[artsci]

Really??? I mean really??? You want the government dictating to private business how they must operate? Um... last time I checked, this is America, not communist China...

Not to go off topic, but China isn't communist or even socialist. That disappeared long ago. It's a capitalist oligarchy ruled by a small number of wealthy elites. Sound familiar?

 

[tomas]

Not to go off topic, but China isn't communist or even socialist. That disappeared long ago. It's a capitalist oligarchy ruled by a small number of wealthy elites. Sound familiar?

Someone's been listening to Lawrence lessig.

 

[CmdrThor]

I really hope Tesla has this all sorted out in 10 years when I want to replace my pack.

This issue does not apply to people who want to replace heavily degraded packs. In your case, you would want to return your pack to Tesla and get a nice new ~150 kWh pack. This issue is for people who want to buy a new pack and use their old pack for other purposes (stationary storage, EV conversion, etc).

 

[green1]

The end result is that Tesla is the only auto maker in the world that is currently getting away with refusing to sell parts to people who want to buy them. There are 2 ways this can go:

1) all other manufacturers follow suit and we all completely lose our right to repair anything we own. This is the equivalent of losing the ability to truly own a car, the manufacturer owns it, and they tell you what you can and can't do with it.

2) courts, and/or the government get involved, and Tesla gets forced to play nice with others, stop being openly hostile to their customers, and we all win, even Tesla.

I wish there was an option 3 where Tesla realizes that they are being dicks, sabotaging their future, creating lots of ill will, and does the right thing on their own. But I just don't see it ever happening without option 2 happening.

 

[brkaus]

3). Similar cars become available from other manufactures, they make parts available, Tesla follows suit. (They will likely do this sooner rather than later, that's part of staying competitive)

 

[green1]

3). Similar cars become available from other manufactures, they make parts available, Tesla follows suit. (They will likely do this sooner rather than later, that's part of staying competitive)

I was looking for an option likely to happen this century

 

[galangg]

I was considering it, but we chatted about the cost on Saturday and I ditched the idea immediately. More so, now.

 

[Caligula]

Not to go off topic, but China isn't communist or even socialist.

The Chinese government may disagree with you on that one.

III. The Party in Power

"The Communist Party is the sole party in power in China".

And regarding my cited source, the "China Internet Information Center":

"China Internet Information Center is a web portal authorized by the People's Republic of China."

 

[Max*]

I don't understand this whole liability nonsense that someone on the forums started. No one at Tesla said it's a liability issue, so why are people speculating?

If things couldn't be sold due to liability and being used incorrectly
1. Scissors. The horror, I could cut my finger off instead of cutting paper
2. Microwaves. What if I put paper in it and start a house fire and die? Nope, let's recall that
3. Pencils. I may be so bored at work, that instead of writing on paper, I'll poke my eye out. Let's not sell anymore pencils.
4. Cars. What if I ... drive over someone and kill them.
etc. etc. etc. *

I don't buy for 1 second that the reason Tesla isn't selling battery packs is due to liability.

*(I didn't bring up guns to avoid this post getting moved to politics)

 

[tomas]

I don't understand this whole liability nonsense that someone on the forums started. No one at Tesla said it's a liability issue, so why are people speculating?

If things couldn't be sold due to liability and being used incorrectly
1. Scissors. The horror, I could cut my finger off instead of cutting paper
2. Microwaves. What if I put paper in it and start a house fire and die? Nope, let's recall that
3. Pencils. I may be so bored at work, that instead of writing on paper, I'll poke my eye out. Let's not sell anymore pencils.
4. Cars. What if I ... drive over someone and kill them.
etc. etc. etc. *

I don't buy for 1 second that the reason Tesla isn't selling battery packs is due to liability.

*(I didn't bring up guns to avoid this post getting moved to politics)

OK, then don't believe it. Your option. Tesla is trying to convince market that BEV cars are viable, safe long distance vehicles. They are under a media microscope. When road hazard incidents raised concerns about battery fires in accidents, they raised suspensions and added shielding. When garage fires occurred (due to owners' faulty wiring), they added charging fault detection software and lowered charging amps if conditions weren't perfect. Do you think they want news and potential suits of some owner getting electrocuted playing with their battery? It is not because it is more dangerous in wrong hands than cars, guns, or pencils. It is because it is distinctly BEV.

 

[Max*]

OK, then don't believe it. Your option. Tesla is trying to convince market that BEV cars are viable, safe long distance vehicles. They are under a media microscope. When road hazard incidents raised concerns about battery fires in accidents, they raised suspensions and added shielding. When garage fires occurred (due to owners' faulty wiring), they added charging fault detection software and lowered charging amps if conditions weren't perfect. Do you think they want news and potential suits of some owner getting electrocuted playing with their battery? It is not because it is more dangerous in wrong hands than cars, guns, or pencils. It is because it is distinctly BEV.

All technology is new and bleeding age at one point or another. I don't recall reading about other manufacturers, that are disrupting the market, not selling components due to liability. Other reasons like keeping their internals proprietary? sure.

I understand why you think the way you do, and you're completely entitled to it, as such I'm completely entitled to think you're wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, people can buy salvage batteries and get electrocuted. The news isn't going to say "Person X bought a salvage Tesla battery" the news will say "Person X got electrocuted by a Tesla battery"

When there's a will, there's a way. Yes, your counter argument will be that Tesla is keeping the battery market smaller, by not selling batteries themselves, but again, due to the above, I don't see it as a liability issue.

 

[brkaus]

I was looking for an option likely to happen this century

I have to think it will... as more cars roll off warranty options will open up. No aftermarket company is going to make parts for them now and no one is going to learn to service them with the minimal cars that will be serviced outside of Tesla. Who takes their brand new BMW to "insert name of auto shop" for warranty work or buys parts at AutoZone?