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Tesla Working on Driver Monitoring System

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by DDotJ, Oct 3, 2020.

  1. DDotJ

    DDotJ Member

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    #1 DDotJ, Oct 3, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 5, 2020
    Saw a tweet from @verygreen that suggests that Tesla is working on a driver monitoring system using the interior selfie cam.

    https://twitter.com/greentheonly/status/1312607693249667073
    In case you were wondering what does the selfie camera in model 3 currently try to detect:

    BLINDED
    DARK
    EYES_CLOSED
    EYES_DOWN
    EYES_NOMINAL
    EYES_UP
    HEAD_DOWN
    HEAD_TRUNC
    LOOKING_LEFT
    LOOKING_RIGHT
    PHONE_USE
    SUNGLASSES_EYES_LIKELY_NOMINAL
    SUNGLASSES_LIKELY_EYES_DOWN
    Click to expand...​
    I remember there was speculation about this feature whether the interior selfie cam could even serve this purpose (with no IR nighttime visibility and non-ideal angle) but it looks like Tesla is attempting it.

    Edit: I realized I may have made an error with the title, I misinterpreted the tweet and thought it meant Tesla was collecting data from the interior camera but that may not be true. Better title might be "Tesla Working on Driver Monitoring System".
     
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  2. Raechris

    Raechris Member

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    There is language in data sharing authorization (car settings - autopilot) to use interior camera for post crash BI assessment. I thought that was interesting
     
  3. verygreen

    verygreen Curious member

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    that's likely to include/not include selfie cam footage in the generated crash snapshot
     
  4. Daniel in SD

    Daniel in SD Well-Known Member

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    Fake news! @Knightshade said this was impossible. :p

    I suspect they'll easily be able to detect people using their phones which is probably the vast majority of driver inattention.
     
  5. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    The "DARK" state doesn't bode well. ;)

    I just hope they take the privacy concerns into account and don't force people to allow this in order to use Autopilot. I would never want to use an interior camera unless there are ironclad guarantees that the images are not stored or uploaded. This can essentially only be used against you.
     
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  6. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    I said it was impossible to do the job well or reliably.

    Which remains true as it's not located in the right place, isn't the right type of camera, and has no IR capture (or emission) hardware and no ability to see through polarized glasses either.

    They could certainly use it to augment the steering wheel sensor and in some cases (decent lighting, non-opaque glasses, etc) it'd certainly be better than adding nothing.

    But it's gonna be pretty garbage compared to the systems actually designed to do this, and I can't see it being capable of enough to be relied on as the only sensor.

    Doubly so when the S/X don't even have the hardware to do it at all.
     
  7. J1mbo

    J1mbo Active Member

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    Whilst I wouldn't use the current version of AP in "hands-off" mode, even with reliable selfie-cam attention monitoring, I would welcome the reduction in nags that this would bring.
     
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  8. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    If Tesla did use the cabin camera for driver attention and implement hands-free driver monitoring, I'd be incredibly happy.
     
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  9. boonedocks

    boonedocks Active Member

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    I seriously wonder where that would leave Model S & X? I am still just hopeful we will bet L3 highways hands free before our cars are heavy paperweights....
     
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  10. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    IMO, you can't safely do hands free L3 highway without a driver facing camera. Yes, when the L3 is on, it is supposed to handle driving without the driver needing to pay attention. The issue is when L3 makes a request for the driver to take over. You need a way to make sure that the driver is able to take over when prompted. You can't have the L3 request the driver take over when the driver is passed out, asleep or distracted and unable to comply. And yes, if the car does not detect any torque on the wheel, it will bring the car to a controlled stop. But the torque system is unreliable. It can be cheated. You can exert torque with one hand while not actually paying attention to the road. So what happens if the L3 turns off after 10 seconds, thinking you are ready to take over because it detects a torque but you are actually not able to take over? That would be bad. You need a reliable way to make sure that when the L3 hands control back to the driver, that the driver is alert and able to take over. The only reliable method we have is a driver facing camera because it is able to detect if the person is actually paying attention to the road or not. So, Model S and X would need to get an interior camera to make hands-free L3 happen IMO.

    So I am afraid you will be stuck with hands-on L2 unless Tesla can retrofit your car with an interior camera or you trade in your car for a newer Tesla that has an interior camera.
     
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  11. Needsdecaf

    Needsdecaf Member

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    Agreed.

    I would not be cool with them switching the driver monitoring from the wheel to the camera and stating "you want to still use AP, well now you have to consent to using the camera". That's not the circumstance under which I bought the car.
     
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  12. Knightshade

    Knightshade Well-Known Member

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    My expectation would be the camera would supplement, not replace, the wheel so long as the system is L2 (since the camera can't see if your hands are on the wheel or not)- so it might nag less often if you opt into using the camera, but would still check wheel torque regularly.

    I suppose the camera might be good enough if they ever go to L3 since then they only need to confirm "driver is present and conscious" not that he's paying active attention or touching the wheel.
     
  13. quadroplexor

    quadroplexor Member

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    My guess is this will be a phased transition. Selfie camera (if you opt in) will reduce nags and eventually not require steering wheel torque. Should driver opt out of selfie camera AP falls back to steering wheel torque mode we've all "enjoyed". Personally I would welcome the camera if nags are reduced.

    Anybody know the specs on the camera?
     
  14. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    This was a alluded to above, but doesn't Tesla need to ask permission to use that interior camera, or is it something we've already agree to somewhere?
     
  15. diplomat33

    diplomat33 Well-Known Member

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    We were asked to opt in back in June of this year, when Tesla first activated the camera to collect data.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Masking tape (or a clever clip design) solves it for all who want to maintain privacy. The trade-off could be their safety by also defeating automation features. But ultimately their choice and associated higher insurance rates that would likely follow. Funny how the system will work itself out there. Indirectly they'd be paying for their own privacy much like paying to stop those annoying ads, both being your choice to make.

    Myself, have trusted Tesla with full video in cabin since getting our Model 3 in early 2018. I have even made faces at the camera during the goofy times. However, I would not trust others such as Waymo who keep their inner workings a secret (through Non-Disclosure Agreements, or "NDAs") while boasting high reliability and consumer safety, and receiving the highest marks by the "experts" that don't even put Tesla FSD on the Top 10 list. To me, that's a trust problem. I don't care what they say, it's what they do that builds trust. Hiding or spinning the facts - that's what cheaters do.

    BTW, GM Cruise has been tracking eyes-on-the-road as well for years, but I've never seen anything in the media to challenge driver privacy there. That's a double standard to all those pressing the "Publish" button in the sold-out media, for more loss of trust.
     
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  17. SOULPEDL

    SOULPEDL Supporting Member

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    Oh, that's right. I forgot you can change this at anytime.
    Still, a cover might be more handy.
     
  18. AdamVIP

    AdamVIP Member

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    I've had black tape over my camera for awhile now. I have no intention of removing that tape.
     
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  19. drtimhill

    drtimhill Active Member

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    If you recall, Tesla explicitly added the ability to use the interior camera for this purpose, and there is a setting to turn it off if you are uncomfy with it (the release notes went into this in detail when it was added). So I dont really see this as "big brother" (yet). And if you are REALLY worried and/or paranoid, just put some tape over the camera hole.
     
  20. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #20 doug, Oct 5, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    Could we leave the Waymo discussion for another thread, please.

    [Moderator's note: Posts mostly about Waymo went here: Waymo]
     
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