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Tesla YANKED FSD option without notice - Class Action lawsuit? Any Lawyers here? [Resolved]

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An update on my FSD. Did it go away or did it stay?

here’s Tesla response...

I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I received word back from the supporting team regarding the autopilot configuration on your vehicle. Unfortunately, since this vehicle was purchased wholesale, the full self drive package was removed as part of that process. For some reason that just wasn't reflected in the vehicle's user interface. wanted to reach out and let you know that I received word back from the supporting team regarding the autopilot configuration on your vehicle. Unfortunately, since this vehicle was purchased wholesale, the full self drive package was removed as part of that process. For some reason that just wasn't reflected in the vehicle's user interface.

The vehicle will now be returned to the seller at a cost of at least $4k to them plus any legal fees they incur to battle Tesla on this. What a waste!
Final update for my story...
Seller has unwound the transaction. They got the bank to cancel the loan and send me a check for 100% of my payments (2 months) plus my deposit has been fully repaid.
The car will be picked up Friday and I will no longer have a Model S. I love the car and see the only way to go forward would be to buy a refreshed S. I’m not near as angry as I would be if the seller was more difficult about this issue.
 
Final update for my story...
Seller has unwound the transaction. They got the bank to cancel the loan and send me a check for 100% of my payments (2 months) plus my deposit has been fully repaid.
The car will be picked up Friday and I will no longer have a Model S. I love the car and see the only way to go forward would be to buy a refreshed S. I’m not near as angry as I would be if the seller was more difficult about this issue.
Super sucks that Tesla is willing to burn so many bridges to turn a trick. Their used cars are going to become pariahs, dealers aren’t gonna want to touch them. Values will tank accordingly.
 
Several people who contacted me through this forum were able to get it back from Tesla, as well, as one person got reimbursed by 3rd party dealer (really lucky;)) .
Hi Alec! I purchased a 2017 Model X from a 3rd party dealership a couple months ago. On the software screen, “Full Self Driving Capability” was an included package, but right after ownership, it changed to basic “autopilot.” I was able to obtain the monroney sticker which shows it included Enhance Autopilot and FSDC packages.
Any tips or help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!
 
Hi Alec! I purchased a 2017 Model X from a 3rd party dealership a couple months ago. On the software screen, “Full Self Driving Capability” was an included package, but right after ownership, it changed to basic “autopilot.” I was able to obtain the monroney sticker which shows it included Enhance Autopilot and FSDC packages.
Any tips or help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

It sounds like your 3rd party dealership may have purchased it from auction, which means that Tesla probably owned it for a short time, in which they removed the software option. As the vehicle owner, Tesla can remove any software item and resell the Model X as is.

As for FSDC, only early 2017 included transferable FSDC, otherwise it was listed as first owner FSDC. I can't remember the cutoff, but I think it was like March 2017. Also note, wince FSDC is a option code/software, that Tesla can also remove it if they owned the vehicle at any time. FSDC is no longer offered, so there may not be any way of getting ti back, whereas EAP or FSD are software purchasable directly from the app (alternatively you'll see a subscription option for FSD in the coming months in the app as well).
 
Hi Alec! I purchased a 2017 Model X from a 3rd party dealership a couple months ago. On the software screen, “Full Self Driving Capability” was an included package, but right after ownership, it changed to basic “autopilot.” I was able to obtain the monroney sticker which shows it included Enhance Autopilot and FSDC packages.
Any tips or help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

I'm in the same boat as you. Purchased a 2017 Model S with EAP showing in the settings menu from a third party dealer. Second day I owned it I tried to use auto lane change, but it didn't work. Contacted Tesla support and they said the car doesn't have EAP. Went out and checked the screen and it just listed "Autopilot".
It's almost like Tesla removed it as soon as I bought the car. I asked if I could even purchase EAP, they said no. So my only option to get auto lane change on my AP2.0 car is to pay $10k for FSD. Completely ridiculous.
 
As for FSDC, only early 2017 included transferable FSDC, otherwise it was listed as first owner FSDC. I can't remember the cutoff, but I think it was like March 2017.
I think you're confusing full self driving with free unlimited supercharging, which was transferable up through early 2017, but applies only to the first owner if you got it later as a referral perk.
 
I'm in the same boat as you. Purchased a 2017 Model S with EAP showing in the settings menu from a third party dealer. Second day I owned it I tried to use auto lane change, but it didn't work. Contacted Tesla support and they said the car doesn't have EAP. Went out and checked the screen and it just listed "Autopilot".
It's almost like Tesla removed it as soon as I bought the car. I asked if I could even purchase EAP, they said no. So my only option to get auto lane change on my AP2.0 car is to pay $10k for FSD. Completely ridiculous.



Tesla can only legally remove features during the time they own the car (excluding things that explicitly tie to the first owner like unlimited supercharging for buyers during a certain period)..

The problem (as explained a bunch of times up thread) happens when Tesla flags the feature to be removed in their back end system- but the car doesn't get the update to turn the feature off until after it's been auctioned to a 3rd party dealer.


This is poor IT on Teslas part- but their internal IT has been pretty awful for a long time (you still get delivery advisors who claim they have no idea where in the transport process your car- that has remote access and GPS- is for example)- so it's not super surprising it still happens.

It's also why until the day they get some non-garbage IT systems I can't recommend anyone buy a used Tesla from anyone who doesn't have a clear, clean, chain of ownership since new that does not include Tesla ever getting the car back.... (unless you're buying it with no promised paid software features, then you're fine since there's nothing to risk)
 
Tesla can only legally remove features during the time they own the car (excluding things that explicitly tie to the first owner like unlimited supercharging for buyers during a certain period)..

The problem (as explained a bunch of times up thread) happens when Tesla flags the feature to be removed in their back end system- but the car doesn't get the update to turn the feature off until after it's been auctioned to a 3rd party dealer.


This is poor IT on Teslas part- but their internal IT has been pretty awful for a long time (you still get delivery advisors who claim they have no idea where in the transport process your car- that has remote access and GPS- is for example)- so it's not super surprising it still happens.
The problem is that the law has not kept up with software ownership. If Tesla flagged the car for wheels removal, but shipped it out to an auction with more expensive wheels than advertised, then the car was sold and Tesla sent a ranger to swap someone's wheels while parked at work, that would be clear theft, not "repossession". Same should apply to software, if you sell the car with it, you should have no right to remove it just because you meant to do it but didn't get around.

This if course all goes away if Tesla was simply to move all software feature to subscriptions, but the world is not quiet ready for no more ownership model. It is coming though, see an interesting piece on that below:

Even today's Teslas are partially subscription - imagine a 2012 Tesla in 2030, do you really think Tesla will maintain that software, or simply kill all internet connectivity (along with all internet features such as GPS maps) in order to keep the cars from being hacked by even script kiddies. Don't think that is going to happen? Well, can you think of any 18 year old internet connected device that is secure today?
It's also why until the day they get some non-garbage IT systems I can't recommend anyone buy a used Tesla from anyone who doesn't have a clear, clean, chain of ownership since new that does not include Tesla ever getting the car back.... (unless you're buying it with no promised paid software features, then you're fine since there's nothing to risk)
In Canada they have (or had) a software locked 100km range version of a Model 3. Similarly in the USA S70's and S75's had an S60 software locked version. If you assume all software goes away, you'd need to assume all used Model 3's have a 100km (62 miles) range. You might think it is ridiculous to assume that, and you'd probably be right, but now we enter the territory of "having to know which features Tesla have historically removed, in order to make the evaluation which features have no value on a used Tesla".
 
The problem is that the law has not kept up with software ownership. If Tesla flagged the car for wheels removal, but shipped it out to an auction with more expensive wheels than advertised, then the car was sold and Tesla sent a ranger to swap someone's wheels while parked at work, that would be clear theft, not "repossession". Same should apply to software, if you sell the car with it, you should have no right to remove it just because you meant to do it but didn't get around.

This somewhat misunderstands how software works here though.

The "software" is on the car. Always.

When you buy FSD they don't "send you the FSD software"

They set a flag on the back-end system (THIS VIN HAS FSD).

When that info is pushed to the car, it just sets a flag "THIS VIN HAS FSD"

And the computer allows the FSD software on the car to be used.

When FSD is "removed" they don't delete a bunch of software.

They just set a flag on the back-end system (THIS VIN DOES NOT HAVE FSD)

Then when that info gets to the car, it unchecks that flag, and FSD features are no longer accessible.

Everyone gets the same software on the car- only the config file enables or disables certain parts of it. This is why if you for example buy Acceleration Boost, it doesn't require downloading anything-- it just requires waiting for the flag on your car OWNS AB or whatever to get set- sometimes this happens almost instantly after purchase, sometimes takes a bit longer.



There are 2 ways to "fix" this disconnect.


1) Every time the car computer boots, it pings back to Tesla to verify its config file locally stored. This isn't ideal, because the car doesn't have connectivity on every boot necessarily, plus it wastes bandwidth Tesla is paying for.


2) Every time the config is changed in the back end system, the back end automatically initiates a push of a new config to the car IMMEDIATELY. And it keeps retrying until it gets an acknowledgement from the car it was received. And the back end also flags that VIN that it can not be sold until it update has been acknowledged by the car

That 2nd is the right way to fix it- but requires some IT work on Teslas end they're either unwilling, or unable, to do years after this issue first came up.

The immediate-push thing we KNOW they can do- because they do it for acceleration boost. So they'd just need a tiny bit of work to make it do that anytime a feature is REMOVED on the back end.

The "block sale until above is acknowledged by car" bit is potentially the hard part.

It wouldn't surprise me if the current IT back end is so fragmented they CAN'T do this fix because the system flagging features/sending updates is unrelated to the used vehicle sales system for example.



This has nothing to do with the law, it has to do with bad internal IT.
 
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The dispute is with the 3rd party dealer rather than Tesla. Your sales contract is with the dealer not Tesla. The dealer might have a cause of action against Tesla, but I find it hard to believe that Tesla sold the car at auction listing FSD as included. More likely, the dealer just didn’t pay attention to their sales contract.

As far as the Moroney sticker, that is irrelevant. The Moroney sticker only states the configuration as manufactured. Features can, and often are, added or removed at the time of sale.
 
The dispute is with the 3rd party dealer rather than Tesla. Your sales contract is with the dealer not Tesla. The dealer might have a cause of action against Tesla, but I find it hard to believe that Tesla sold the car at auction listing FSD as included. More likely, the dealer just didn’t pay attention to their sales contract.


From what I've seen there's nothing in the auction sales contract that addresses if the car has FSD or not.

The ones I've seen all you get is a disclosure doc listing the year, make, model, and mileage of the vehicle- and a description of any repairs Tesla had done to it.

Nothing about options or features on the vehicle or not.

So literally all anyone has to go by in this regard at the auction is what is displayed on the screen.


Which, until Tesla fixes their IT problem, is not trustworthy in these situations.
 
This somewhat misunderstands how software works here though.

The "software" is on the car. Always.

When you buy FSD they don't "send you the FSD software"

They set a flag on the back-end system (THIS VIN HAS FSD).

When that info is pushed to the car, it just sets a flag "THIS VIN HAS FSD"

And the computer allows the FSD software on the car to be used.

When FSD is "removed" they don't delete a bunch of software.

They just set a flag on the back-end system (THIS VIN DOES NOT HAVE FSD)

Then when that info gets to the car, it unchecks that flag, and FSD features are no longer accessible.

Everyone gets the same software on the car- only the config file enables or disables certain parts of it. This is why if you for example buy Acceleration Boost, it doesn't require downloading anything-- it just requires waiting for the flag on your car OWNS AB or whatever to get set- sometimes this happens almost instantly after purchase, sometimes takes a bit longer.



There are 2 ways to "fix" this disconnect.


1) Every time the car computer boots, it pings back to Tesla to verify its config file locally stored. This isn't ideal, because the car doesn't have connectivity on every boot necessarily, plus it wastes bandwidth Tesla is paying for.


2) Every time the config is changed in the back end system, the back end automatically initiates a push of a new config to the car IMMEDIATELY. And it keeps retrying until it gets an acknowledgement from the car it was received. And the back end also flags that VIN that it can not be sold until it update has been acknowledged by the car

That 2nd is the right way to fix it- but requires some IT work on Teslas end they're either unwilling, or unable, to do years after this issue first came up.

The immediate-push thing we KNOW they can do- because they do it for acceleration boost. So they'd just need a tiny bit of work to make it do that anytime a feature is REMOVED on the back end.

The "block sale until above is acknowledged by car" bit is potentially the hard part.

It wouldn't surprise me if the current IT back end is so fragmented they CAN'T do this fix because the system flagging features/sending updates is unrelated to the used vehicle sales system for example.



This has nothing to do with the law, it has to do with bad internal IT.
You are way overcomplicating things by getting into the technical details separating software layers and their configuration/licensing. I'm surprised you didn't break it down further to tell us how the software runs on an Operating System which is also required, and how the operating system relies on BIOS/EFI software, and all of it relies the microcode in the CPU's which defines each CPU instruction execution. Operating System, BIOS/EFI and CPU microcode could also be considered types of software (since they are reprogrammable without changing physical hardware), and they all use configuration files (some authenticated, some not).

Just assume FSD is a software feature, which includes all the necessary hardware (there is required hardware too), the code to run, and licensing/configuration. Then apply what I said about the law not keeping up with virtual possessions such as FSD software feature. The law really doesn't need to go into all the software layers involved, only consider the FSD feature - it's either working as advertised or not.

PS> Tesla already has a way to push configuration/feature updates almost instantly. They've had it for a while too. I remember unlocking battery capacity on a S60D, it was updated within minutes of me paying online (via a PC, not in the car). So as soon as the feature is stripped from the online database, there already is a way for the car to get the update within few minutes. So this is not a technical problem, it's a Tesla sloppy process (or lack thereof) problem. Remember Elon's quote "best process is no process", we are just experiencing this "best process" here.
 
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From what I've seen there's nothing in the auction sales contract that addresses if the car has FSD or not.

The ones I've seen all you get is a disclosure doc listing the year, make, model, and mileage of the vehicle- and a description of any repairs Tesla had done to it.

Nothing about options or features on the vehicle or not.

So literally all anyone has to go by in this regard at the auction is what is displayed on the screen.


Which, until Tesla fixes their IT problem, is not trustworthy in these situations.
An alternative of course (though not a very good one) would be for Tesla to provide a way to check on the features of the car given a VIN. Though this would clearly have privacy/security issues also unless it was restricted to cars that were in the sales channel (and how would they do that?).
 
You are way overcomplicating things by getting into the technical details separating software layers and their configuration/licensing.

Since that's where the problem exists it seemed pretty relevant.



PS> Tesla already has a way to push configuration/feature updates almost instantly.

Yes.

I literally explained that in my post.

Me in the post you are quoting said:
The immediate-push thing we KNOW they can do- because they do it for acceleration boost. So they'd just need a tiny bit of work to make it do that anytime a feature is REMOVED on the back end.

It's absolutely a TECHNICAL problem, because programmatically it should happen on its own when a feature is removed.

But that does not happen.

It DOES happen when a feature is ADDED (for example paying for AB- or the battery unlock you mention).

There's no need for any human or manual process to be created to do it- just like 2 extra lines of code to insure it happens automagically for both adding features (as it does today) AND removing them (as it does not appear to do today).


That would be the easy part to fix. It would still leave the other, harder, technical issue to fix though.

if the car is someplace it can't get a signal right now, the feature won't be removed.

And there's nothing in the system to flag it as DO NO SELL UNTIL FLAGS ARE UPDATED.

And it might not even be possible to do that with the current system because it wouldn't surprise me if their systems lack enough integration between what handles used vehicle sales and what handles back-end feature flags to do it.

So it would still be possible for a car to display FSD when it doesn't "really" have it on the back end anymore until they fix that second part.

But at least it'd fix MOST of these situations if they just added the 2 lines of code to insta-push removals as they already insta-push adds.
 
Since that's where the problem exists it seemed pretty relevant.





Yes.

I literally explained that in my post.



It's absolutely a TECHNICAL problem, because programmatically it should happen on its own when a feature is removed.

But that does not happen.

It DOES happen when a feature is ADDED (for example paying for AB- or the battery unlock you mention).

There's no need for any human or manual process to be created to do it- just like 2 extra lines of code to insure it happens automagically for both adding features (as it does today) AND removing them (as it does not appear to do today).


That would be the easy part to fix. It would still leave the other, harder, technical issue to fix though.

if the car is someplace it can't get a signal right now, the feature won't be removed.

And there's nothing in the system to flag it as DO NO SELL UNTIL FLAGS ARE UPDATED.

And it might not even be possible to do that with the current system because it wouldn't surprise me if their systems lack enough integration between what handles used vehicle sales and what handles back-end feature flags to do it.

So it would still be possible for a car to display FSD when it doesn't "really" have it on the back end anymore until they fix that second part.

But at least it'd fix MOST of these situations if they just added the 2 lines of code to insta-push removals as they already insta-push adds.
My impression is that the way the system works is it does an audit on ownership change. That's why this only happens when ownership has changed hands (also applies to cases where the original owner got a certain feature for free due to a bug and then it gets removed on transfer to new owner).

For this problem, even if they don't do an automatic progress, they can have someone manually verify the features are removed before it's listed for auction. This wouldn't be an issue if even that occurred, as it seems these third party cases seem to always involve auctions.
 
Well, for employee cars and others that had free FSD for whatever reason. They need a different feature code and it should be displayed on the screen as such. An audit on owner change is crap - no one is around to defend it.

Ditto for free supercharging as transferable or not. Should be on the screen.

the center screen should also have a “last verified with Tesla” date. So one knows if it’s recent or not in a photo.

i still believe they have the right to remove it in their possession. But if they fail that’s on Tesla not the next person.
 
Well, for employee cars and others that had free FSD for whatever reason. They need a different feature code and it should be displayed on the screen as such. An audit on owner change is crap - no one is around to defend it.

Ditto for free supercharging as transferable or not. Should be on the screen.

the center screen should also have a “last verified with Tesla” date. So one knows if it’s recent or not in a photo.

i still believe they have the right to remove it in their possession. But if they fail that’s on Tesla not the next person.
I think many times the feature is removed while it is in the dealer's hands, as in the OP case (and one other more widely reported case before). Then it becomes a matter of the auction house possibly misrepresenting the car (but it seems on most of these cases the auction house does not say the car includes FSD) or the dealer misrepresenting the car (at the time of sale to end user, the feature was already gone, but dealer still sell based on Montroney sticker).
 
Since that's where the problem exists it seemed pretty relevant.
No, that is not where the problem is. As you agreed, Tesla already has the technical capability to (almost) instantly enable/disable software features on their cars remotely. The problem is they are not using at the correct time (i.e. using it after they already sold the car to auction instead of prior). Whether using said capability downloads whole new software or just a new license/configuration is absolutely irrelevant to this issue.