Teslarati : "California passes law banning Tesla from calling software FSD"

[Ramphex]

Let’s be real. Full Self Driving is not Full Self Driving. Full Self Driving Beta is also not Full Self Driving. The name is a gimmick. It’s barely a driver assist, it requires more attention, whack-a-mole yoke/wheel games, and the cabin camera nonsense, than just regular manual driving.

 

[dcesq06]

And perhaps the most important point: Tesla can answer this thread’s title with, “okay, we haven’t called any of our features FSD, so we’re good!” That’s why the public use of terms matters and how it’s diverged from Tesla’s use. Go back through Archive.org caches of the website and there isn’t any software Tesla has sold to customers called “FSD” or “Full Self Driving”

California's DMV referenced this page on Tesla's website. I don't know if the page is still there or how you get to it on the website. I found it in an LA Times article.

 

[EVNow]

Yes

So I guess you have proof for all the speculation you posted as if they are facts ?

 

[dcesq06]

So what parts of their website/ADAS features will need to be changed? FSD Capability package? Where/what else? Maybe screenshots would help? I’m having trouble finding much that would need to be changed, if any at all.

Maybe I am confused by what you are saying, but I don't understand why you keep referring to Tesla's website with respect to what the new law will require about Tesla's use of FSD. The issue under the law isn't just what Tesla may say on its website, but it also pertains to every place else where Tesla refers to full self driving ... that could be its website, what Elon tweets or says in an interview, what appears on a menu page in the car, what may be said on an investor's call or in a presentation, what someone at a dealership may say, etc.

For what its worth, I believe the California legislature is much more concerned about what Tesla and other manufacturers may do in the future as opposed to what Tesla or other manufacturers have previously done. In other words, they want to keep manufacturers from truly advertising, marketing, or referring to an L2 car as full self driving when, in reality, is driver assisted.

 

[TresLA]

California's DMV referenced this page on Tesla's website. I don't know if the page is still there or how you get to it on the website. I found it in an LA Times article.

The page is there still, but again I’m not sure what Tesla would have to change (other than maybe that one word “full”). The statements are future looking and seem pretty clear about the plan for the hardware suite’s future use. The same page even states the current features do not make the vehicle autonomous. And considering it‘s not easy to find, it seems a weak page to use. Perhaps the issue is about the word Autopilot, in which case others would probably fall under the same law and have to change their names (ProPilot, Intelligent Drive, etc.)

 

[TresLA]

Maybe I am confused by what you are saying, but I don't understand why you keep referring to Tesla's website with respect to what the new law will require about Tesla's use of FSD. The issue under the law isn't just what Tesla may say on its website, but it also pertains to every place else where Tesla refers to full self driving ... that could be its website, what Elon tweets or says in an interview, what appears on a menu page in the car, what may be said on an investor's call or in a presentation, what someone at a dealership may say, etc.

For what its worth, I believe the California legislature is much more concerned about what Tesla and other manufacturers may do in the future as opposed to what Tesla or other manufacturers have previously done. In other words, they want to keep manufacturers from truly advertising, marketing, or referring to an L2 car as full self driving when, in reality, is driver assisted.

What I keep referring to is because the term FSD/Full Self Driving isn’t used by Tesla for an existing feature or software, hence FSD beta. When people refer to FSD, they’re talking about the FSD Capability package, which the company’s references all make clear is a package for future coming features/software. Tesla doesn’t refer to it as FSD. It’s not just about using an additional word, “Capability”, but rather it’s a clear communication that public discourse has taken on to mean something else. Any reference Tesla uses FSD for (e.g. - see their YouTube channel as linked by someone earlier), is a future feature. FSD doesn‘t exist yet and Tesla agrees.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The page is there still, but again I’m not sure what Tesla would have to change (other than maybe that one word “full”). The statements are future looking and seem pretty clear about the plan for the hardware suite’s future use. The same page even states the current features do not make the vehicle autonomous. And considering it‘s not easy to find, it seems a weak page to use. Perhaps the issue is about the word Autopilot, in which case others would probably fall under the same law and have to change their names (ProPilot, Intelligent Drive, etc.)

They could change this part of the page:

 

[TresLA]

They could change this part of the page:
View attachment 889484

But that was a test vehicle demo‘ing the development of FSD. Our current feature set doesn’t include this software (hence no hands on the wheel in that video even though we are clearly required to have hands on the wheel still)

 

[dcesq06]

So I guess you have proof for all the speculation you posted as if they are facts ?

Specifically, which posts of mine in this thread do you believe are speculative? (I concede post #32 was clearly speculation on my part.)

I believe this is the 2nd time since I've joined the forum that you've made a similar reference about my posting speculation as facts. Surely, you must recognize the hypocrisy in you raising that as an issue. (And yes, I am speculating that you do in fact recognize your hypocrisy on this issue.)

I typically enjoy reading your posts and I find much of what you say extremely informative and helpful, but these posts are silly and petty - especially given that you do the same thing as well. (Case in point, in post #3, you state "Tesla, I'm sure, wishes it had not used the name." Do you really know that for sure or are you just speculating?)

 

[dcesq06]

What I keep referring to is because the term FSD/Full Self Driving isn’t used by Tesla for an existing feature or software, hence FSD beta. When people refer to FSD, they’re talking about the FSD Capability package, which the company’s references all make clear is a package for future coming features/software. Tesla doesn’t refer to it as FSD. It’s not just about using an additional word, “Capability”, but rather it’s a clear communication that public discourse has taken on to mean something else. Any reference Tesla uses FSD for (e.g. - see their YouTube channel as linked by someone earlier), is a future feature. FSD doesn‘t exist yet and Tesla agrees.

I do believe there is some truth to that, but I also have heard/read Tesla/Elon use FSD with respect to its existing software.

Regardless, I really do believe (and I obviously could be wrong) that the California state legislature is trying to control what Tesla or other manufacturers may say in the future, versus whatever misleading statements they may have made in the past.

 

[TresLA]

I do believe there is some truth to that, but I also have heard/read Tesla/Elon use FSD with respect to its existing software.

Regardless, I really do believe (and I obviously could be wrong) that the California state legislature is trying to control what Tesla or other manufacturers may say in the future, versus whatever misleading statements they may have made in the past.

I can’t say with any certainty that Tesla/Elon hasn’t used the term FSD for any existing feature or software, but I’d like to be shown otherwise if someone can find it. It’s seemed consistent to me that they understand the term as the goal and not something they’ve already created.

 

[Ramphex]

Specifically, which posts of mine in this thread do you believe are speculative? (I concede post #32 was clearly speculation on my part.)

I believe this is the 2nd time since I've joined the forum that you've made a similar reference about my posting speculation as facts. Surely, you must recognize the hypocrisy in you raising that as an issue. (And yes, I am speculating that you do in fact recognize your hypocrisy on this issue.)

I typically enjoy reading your posts and I find much of what you say extremely informative and helpful, but these posts are silly and petty - especially given that you do the same thing as well. (Case in point, in post #3, you state "Tesla, I'm sure, wishes it had not used the name." Do you really know that for sure or are you just speculating?)

I agree with you, but don't call me Shirley

 

[dcesq06]

I can’t say with any certainty that Tesla/Elon hasn’t used the term FSD for any existing feature or software, but I’d like to be shown otherwise if someone can find it. It’s seemed consistent to me that they understand the term as the goal and not something they’ve already created.

I know Elon has multiple times on Twitter this year.

Also, in Tesla's 3rd quarter earnings call from this year, Elon said "as I said earlier, we're expecting to release the full self-driving software to anyone who orders the package by the end of this year. So, a separate matter as to will it have regulatory approval. It won't have regulatory approval at that time. But the car we'll be able to take you from your home to your work, your friend's house, to the grocery store without you touching wheel" and he also said "We'll achieve full self-driving full time -- that occurring is 100%. And I think we'll -- we're almost there. And then, of course, we've got to prove it to regulators and get the regulatory approvals, which is outside of our control. But anyone who's driving full self-driving cars, full self-driving beta in the car, you can see the rate of improvement."

Those statements cross the line between Elon just being optimistic/aspirational and Elon making it sound like Tesla already has (or is REALLY close to having) a full self driving car when he is really just talking about driver assist/Level 2 systems. When he makes statements like that (regardless of whether he calls it FSD or FSD beta), it is misleading.

 

[mtbwalt]

IMO, any marketing benefit Tesla has garnered by using “full self driving” moniker has been swamped by the negative reaction people have to the system not actually being fully autonomous. Just like laws that clearly accomplish the opposite of what they are named. Nobody buys “FSD” thinking it is driver independent. This California law is not about protecting anyone, it is just sanctimonious busybody signaling.

Tesla would be much letter off naming it something thematic but non-descriptive like “Ampere System” and then just letting the capability of the system speak for itself.

 

[STS-134]

IMO, any marketing benefit Tesla has garnered by using “full self driving” moniker has been swamped by the negative reaction people have to the system not actually being fully autonomous. Just like laws that clearly accomplish the opposite of what they are named. Nobody buys “FSD” thinking it is driver independent. This California law is not about protecting anyone, it is just sanctimonious busybody signaling.

There are people who actually did believe that it was fully autonomous. Did you forget the story of Param Sharma?

There aren't so many of them now but that's only because of the coverage it gets in the press and the highly publicized event of an Apple engineer getting killed at a gore point in Mountain View, among others. But if it takes media coverage to tell people that something isn't what its name appears to be, regulators are doing it wrong. You aren't allowed to sell a placebo as a miracle cure for disease X, and a placebo is something that won't help but also won't harm. If people believing that it's a miracle cure for disease X actually causes them harm, the company selling it is going to be sued for an even greater amount of money.

 

[ElectricIAC]

That’s bold. I don’t even trust FSD to stay away from the curb.

 

[zoomer0056]

a placebo is something that won't help but also won't harm

Not true. If you take a placebo instead of a real drug then you could be harmed by not having benefit from the real drug you need.

 

[Twiglett]

Tesla doesn’t have marketing dept is technically true in the traditional sense, but since when is Tesla traditional?
The fact the most of the non-Tesla owners have the impression that a Tesla can drive itself are entirely caused by the use of weasel words like disclaimers. If it needs “capable” or disclaimers then the words are false. That’s called marketing.
When CSO (Chief Shill Officer) goes on Twitter making ridiculous claims that Tesla will soon drive cross country unaided, that’s just modern marketing.
All those shill videos with folks driving with hands on their laps doing “no disconnect drives”.
General public believes that stuff.
New owners join these forums expecting a self driving car. We had one guy a month or back who thought “paying attention” meant he could look out the side window for 30 seconds or more. That was his expectation, albeit unrealistic.

Pretending that using “capability” is enough doesn’t apply when we all know that FSD in its current form will never Self Drive or be a Robotaxi.
Ask all the folks who have MCU2 cars with “FSD”

 

[STS-134]

That’s bold. I don’t even trust FSD to stay away from the curb.

That guy needs to win the Darwin Award. He went to jail and his car got impounded and when he got out, he bought another one and did it again.

 

[Dewg]

That guy needs to win the Darwin Award. He went to jail and his car got impounded and when he got out, he bought another one and did it again.

My favorite part of the article is: On the first day of freedom from Santa Rita Jail, the 25-year-old went to a Tesla dealership and bought a new car.

I'm glad to see Telsa has opened dealerships with cars on the lot. I'm guessing there are service centers in those dealerships too, so I can get an oil change on my Model Y while I'm there looking at new cars.