Teslarati pulls a "Broder:" Does L2 charging even exist for Tesla drivers?

[ThosEM]

What happens when you completely run out of battery in your Tesla Model S? - TESLARATI.com

So even a Tesla enthusiast group is capable of running out of juice and finding it necessary to call Tesla for a tow job. There are a couple of things really wrong about this.

First, it seems to me that there is a serious issue with energy monitoring that must be addressed. (Read, instrument panel projected range, current and at destination if using navigation).

Second, Tesla drivers are going to have to get over the fact that, if we can just make it a few more miles, we avoid having to pay for or wait for some extra range to be added. This seems to be the downside of supercharging at fixed intervals.

Thoughts?

 

[rlang59]

Also counting on this is just asking for trouble.

"The estimated range on the driver’s dash will read 0 however it’s not the end. There is an extra reserve good for another 10 – 20 miles, depending on your power consumption, after reaching the 0 mark."

 

[pilotSteve]

I drove from Winslow AZ to Flagstaff supercharges and *could have* experienced the same as this. I started with 125% of the trip distance as Rated range. All was good at 75 MPH posted speed (maintaining my 40 mile reserve) for the first 2/3 of the trip, then the long climb up to 5,000' began and my reserve started to "get used up". When It hit 28 I decided I had to take charge (pun) and do something RIGHT NOW!

So I bit the bullet and moved into the right lane and climbed the hills and the last 45 minutes of driving at 55 MPH (slowing to 50 in the really steep sections). I could see my reserve stabilize at 20 miles. Pulled into Flagstaff with 18 miles remaining.

Do the math folks. Consider that arriving with zero is unacceptable, let alone driving past that point. If you need to conserve energy do it early in the trip where it can make the difference.

 

[jive_devil]

Reading the article just reinforces the need for a Primm Supercharger.

The drive to Vegas from California has enough wind/heat/elevation variables that I think it's necessary . . . especially if you're in a 60kWH, although I know it has been done.

 

[Krugerrand]

Also counting on this is just asking for trouble.

"The estimated range on the driver’s dash will read 0 however it’s not the end. There is an extra reserve good for another 10 – 20 miles, depending on your power consumption, after reaching the 0 mark."

Agreed. There's extra gas in my tank when the needle hits E, but I don't try and use it. In fact, when I hit a quarter tank I tend to plan stopping for gas at the next station.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Agreed. There's extra gas in my tank when the needle hits E, but I don't try and use it. In fact, when I hit a quarter tank I tend to plan stopping for gas at the next station.

My 2010 Prius will:
- beep at 20 miles to go
- Quickly drop from about 5 to 0 miles to go

It has an 11.9 gallon tank, 0 miles is about a 9.5 gallon fill. So at 0 you obviously have quite a few miles left. I fill up at my local Cumberland Farms (I have the discount unlinked debit card) on my way home on the commute where I get the beep.

 

[ThosEM]

Agreed. There's extra gas in my tank when the needle hits E, but I don't try and use it. In fact, when I hit a quarter tank I tend to plan stopping for gas at the next station.

The one time in my life that I recall running out of gas with a car (ask me about motorcycles some other time) was when I tried to see how far I could get on the reserve tank below E on the gauge. For that Pontiac Trans Sport it turned out not to be very far at all, maybe 10 miles.

 

[mgboyes]

Also articles like this fail to discuss what would happen if you completely ran out of fuel in an ICE car.

In a petrol (gasoline) car chances are you can be topped up and the car will just start. But in a diesel (not so common in the US but very common in the UK and Europe) if you actually run out of fuel completely then you cannot just re-fill it; you have to completely bleed the fuel system to get the air out of it. My Audi actually has a function where after it gets beyond 0 range it starts deliberately misfiring in order to make the driver realise quite how critically important it is that they fill up. Running out of diesel would be way more hassle than running out of charge in your Model S - you'd have to tow the to a repair place, perhaps wait for them to open, pay a hefty fee, etc etc etc.

The only real issue here is that there aren't as many "electric stations" as "gas stations" but that's only because we've been building gas stations for 100 years and electric stations for 2. Over time that will change, so writing articles that effectively say "it's such a shame that there aren't 100,000 supercharger sites to top up these 30,000 cars" is completely missing the point.

(But yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Tesla need to improve the way they inform drivers about what their real range is going to be based on their current driving style, conditions, etc. The fact you can't put a "predicted range" figure into the main center display on the dash is madness IMO.)

 

[AnOutsider]

Also articles like this fail to discuss what would happen if you completely ran out of fuel in an ICE car.

I know I'm only taking a section of your post (and the rest of your post mirrors my sentiments), but it was appropriate for this comment I noticed (emphasis mine):

Look guys, if you leave Las Vegas going west, PAY ATTENTION TO THE WINDS. High winds blowing west to east ARE ACTUALLY COMMON in that part of the country. If you had started the trip with 256 miles instead of 240 (try filling it up next time), or knowing you didn't have a full charge and knew you had winds (you checked the forecast, right?), you should have driven the speed limit. And then, failing all that, you should have had a backup charge plan that you could have executed before you ran your battery dead. There are Level 2 chargers along the way...

I cringe when I see stuff like this. Let's step back for a second and imagine the Model S didn't exist and you were driving whatever it was you drove before then. How often did you check the wind conditions before taking a drive? There was an uproar when Lexus did the ad campaign that had text on the ground in front of a parking spot along the lines of "this spot reserved for someone with hours to kill". They could have easily hit the same notes with "forgot to check the wind and temperature before leaving? It's all good".

There is much talk of more (and quicker) charging stations vs bigger batteries, but if we want EVs to become mainstream, they really need to be no-brainer machines. Longer range and faster charges would be huge steps in that direction IMO.

 

[ElSupreme]

They could have easily hit the same notes with "forgot to check the wind and temperature before leaving? It's all good".

All this is true but they were driving 75mph and drove 10-20 miles past zero as it was.

That isn't hard to figure out. They didn't change their habits despite obvious signs that they weren't' going to make it.

taking into account the additional 10 – 20 miles of reserve range that we were able to tap into

 

[dsm363]

I know I'm only taking a section of your post (and the rest of your post mirrors my sentiments), but it was appropriate for this comment I noticed (emphasis mine):



I cringe when I see stuff like this. Let's step back for a second and imagine the Model S didn't exist and you were driving whatever it was you drove before then. How often did you check the wind conditions before taking a drive? There was an uproar when Lexus did the ad campaign that had text on the ground in front of a parking spot along the lines of "this spot reserved for someone with hours to kill". They could have easily hit the same notes with "forgot to check the wind and temperature before leaving? It's all good".

There is much talk of more (and quicker) charging stations vs bigger batteries, but if we want EVs to become mainstream, they really need to be no-brainer machines. Longer range and faster charges would be huge steps in that direction IMO.

Well said. No matter what we want any trip over about 160 miles takes at least a few seconds of thought in an 85kWh Model S (is the wind 40mph, am I going up straight a mountain, will the speed limit be 75mph....etc). We are a way off from enough quick chargers being around where you can just hop into tie car with half a 'tank' like many people do and take off on a 400 mile trip because you know there is a gas/charge station every 5 miles.

 

[AnOutsider]

All this is true but they were driving 75mph and drove 10-20 miles past zero as it was.

That isn't hard to figure out. They didn't change their habits despite obvious signs that they weren't' going to make it.

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Yeah, not defending these guys are all (especially since they should know better), more touching on the fact that many people seem to think owning an EV comes with only positive changes and only "stupid people" can't handle it.

 

[JohnQ]

I know I'm only taking a section of your post (and the rest of your post mirrors my sentiments), but it was appropriate for this comment I noticed (emphasis mine):

There is much talk of more (and quicker) charging stations vs bigger batteries, but if we want EVs to become mainstream, they really need to be no-brainer machines. Longer range and faster charges would be huge steps in that direction IMO.

Until fast charge stations are ubiquitous, EVs can't be no-brainer machines. My energy usage depends on weather and elevation. I must know this to plan a long distance trip right now. If I'm running out of energy because of poor planning, I have to know to slow down, even below the speed limit, to make the next station. It's the state of affairs right now for road trips and should not be sugar coated.

I agree that this is not common behavior for most people (and thus running out of charge is going to happen) but there has to be an education process. Otherwise everyone waits until there are enough charging stations and there aren't enough charging stations because there are few EVs on the road.

 

[Cottonwood]

Until fast charge stations are ubiquitous, EVs can't be no-brainer machines. My energy usage depends on weather and elevation. I must know this to plan a long distance trip right now. If I'm running out of energy because of poor planning, I have to know to slow down, even below the speed limit, to make the next station. It's the state of affairs right now for road trips and should not be sugar coated.

I agree that this is not common behavior for most people (and thus running out of charge is going to happen) but there has to be an education process. Otherwise everyone waits until there are enough charging stations and there aren't enough charging stations because there are few EVs on the road.

My rule of thumb is that to avoid problems and make using Superchargers easy, the maximum distance between Superchargers needs to me no more than 133 miles with no elevation difference, and reduce that by 6 miles per 1,000 feet for elevation differences between the Superchargers. I have discussed the reasons for this elsewhere, but the simple answer for flat ground is to be able to leave a Supercharger with a Rated Mile capacity in the battery of 1.5 * the distance to go. This is more than you need to drive 85 mph, but gives needed margin for wind, weather, and traffic. If I take the rated range of a 60 as 200 miles and 80% of an 85 at 200 miles, then 200 miles / 1.5 is 133 miles. 133 is the limit for easy travel in a 60 and fast travel in an 85 (only Supercharge to 80%).

Las Vegas and Barstow Superchargers are 162 miles apart. That extra distance with wind causes the problems. Primm to Barstow is only 113 miles. Put in a Primm Supercharger and this problem goes away. Keep Superchargers 133 miles or closer together and the thinking gets a lot simpler and almost all problems go away! Beyond 133 miles between Superchargers and you have to think; make that 200 miles and it takes a lot of thinking and hypermiling!!!

 

[DennisLevitt]

@pilotSteve and many others are right. Simple answer is drive 65mph and compare nav range to rated range until you feel comfortable. That particular stretch, Las Vegas to Barstow, is definitely problematic with winds and elevation. Starting out driving 75 is definitely putting you potentially on the road to disaster. Last month I did Las Vegas to Barstow. Weather.com and Accuweather.com both had 25mph winds coming directly at me. Ugh. After a Maximum charge at the Las Vegas supercharger, I started out driving 60-65. In Baker, about halfway, I was way up in mileage and moved up to 75 and arrived with about 20 rated range. Road trips with an EV aren't a no-brainer, but with the easily available tools like EVTripPlanner.com and Weather.com it's not rocket science.

 

[AnOutsider]

Aren't there rumors of this stuff (elevation, wind conditions etc) being included in the next nav update? I think tools like that will go a LONG way to helping folks complete longer journeys with their fingernails in tact.

 

[dsm363]

Aren't there rumors of this stuff (elevation, wind conditions etc) being included in the next nav update? I think tools like that will go a LONG way to helping folks complete longer journeys with their fingernails in tact.

Elon's said something like that in the past. I think it was one of his speeches in Europe.

 

[callmesam]

I've driven Barstow to Vegas 3 times in the 60.

1. Slow down on the climbs. Only 18 miles of uphill, but dropping your speed 15 miles only costs you a couple of minutes and almost guarantees making it.

2. Open it up on the downhills and let gravity carry you. You'll have 20 miles of 0 energy use which will help extend your fuel tank.

3. Don't be afraid to slow down if you think it's going to be close. Pull in the lane with the trailers and draft. You don't have to be close. Just follow the traffic flow.

Putting the cruise on 75 (regardless of terrain) will get you into trouble until the Supercharger network is spaced every 50-80 miles.

 

[Kraken]

My rule of thumb is that to avoid problems and make using Superchargers easy, the maximum distance between Superchargers needs to me no more than 133 miles with no elevation difference, and reduce that by 6 miles per 1,000 feet for elevation differences between the Superchargers. I have discussed the reasons for this elsewhere, but the simple answer for flat ground is to be able to leave a Supercharger with a Rated Mile capacity in the battery of 1.5 * the distance to go. This is more than you need to drive 85 mph, but gives needed margin for wind, weather, and traffic. If I take the rated range of a 60 as 200 miles and 80% of an 85 at 200 miles, then 200 miles / 1.5 is 133 miles. 133 is the limit for easy travel in a 60 and fast travel in an 85 (only Supercharge to 80%).

Las Vegas and Barstow Superchargers are 162 miles apart. That extra distance with wind causes the problems. Primm to Barstow is only 113 miles. Put in a Primm Supercharger and this problem goes away. Keep Superchargers 133 miles or closer together and the thinking gets a lot simpler and almost all problems go away! Beyond 133 miles between Superchargers and you have to think; make that 200 miles and it takes a lot of thinking and hypermiling!!!

I'd say the ideal range for superchargers is about every 50 miles. That way if you aren't making the intended one, you can stop short. It would also alleviate congestion as people would be at different rhythms and intervals where for where they stop.

 

[Cottonwood]

I'd say the ideal range for superchargers is about every 50 miles. That way if you aren't making the intended one, you can stop short. It would also alleviate congestion as people would be at different rhythms and intervals where for where they stop.

Absolutely! That should be the long term goal for Tesla for convenience and to add capacity. However, during the initial buildout, Tesla has finite resources and wants to cover as many popular highways as they can. My 133 mile rule was meant to be the maximum distance between Superchargers during initial buildout. In filling with shorter distances between Superchargers later is a great idea, but Tesla has to cover more highways first.