-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
llavalle
Member
And I bet a bunch of those "90" labeled pack had very close or less capacity than some "85" packs... those 90 pack cell don't seem to have a shallow degradation curve like the 85 ones
Yep. I've been reluctant to put Tesla on blast for this particular snafu, given the source of the data, but suffice it to say 85 folks are in better shape than 90 folks overall.
The EPA data for M3 LR are as follows:
Battery Energy Capacity (EPA, Ah) =230
Average System Voltage (EPA, V) = 351
Calculated total battery capacity = 230 x 351 = 80,730 Wh
Charge depleting test
End -SOC battery capacity (EPA, footnote, Wh) = 78,270 (usable)
Average System Voltage (EPA, V) = 351
Integrated Amp-Hours (EPA) = 222.81
Recharge Event Energy (EPA, kWh) = 89.404
Calculated battery depleting capacity = 222.81 x 351 = 78,206 (usable)
Apparently the one tested for EPA did have 85kWh capacity. So which specific capacity are you referring to?
"Apparently, referring to what exactly? It's just a Tesla round up error, well, intent. There's nothing 90 around any 90 car, in any unit, that I'm aware of. Other brands would go for 80 with such specs. Look at Hyundai, Chevy, etc.
Ok, we are going somewhere. Couple more questions
- Do you believe that "some static value" in your conjecture is completely arbitrary, or?
- I have no idea which value of battery capacity you were providing in your original post as there were no details, documentation, etc., but taking it at face value (82kWh). Do you think this value is consistent with the following statement from the OP: "This means that the "85" pack is "missing" about 4.3 kWh of capacity."
I've never seen a technical doc merely hinting that it's actually 85kWh and 90kWh. EPA doesn't hand out trunk badges. But perhaps such docs exist? In practice, I've never seen anyone come to such high number. If EPA did test such, then owners have something to complain about, perhaps?
EDIT: I now see it on the previous page. Not sure what to make of it.
OT, any news on the 85kWh car recently spotted, that seemed "new"?
Last edited:
llavalle
Member
I don't know for sure. The original design intention was to have a 40, 60 and 85. Then they probably realized they could deliver the promised range for less than 85kWh or maybe the module design added up to 82 or a lower value and they decided to stick with 85 for some marketing purposes. Why this lookup table / init value / whatever its called is higher than actual capacity... I can't comment on that, that'd be speculation.
Not sure what you are referring to with "my original post". If I look under my car, the pack has a clearly labeled sticker stating voltage and capacity. Capacity is stated at 85kWh. Knowing that a Model S in the wild with less than 4000km cannot, under any circonstances pull more than 81-82kWh I'd said that OP is correct.
We all expect degradation but you'd think that the capacity of a demo car with less than 2-3K kms would be the same as a new one.
Let's put it this way : if for some reasons you can actually pull the full 85kWh on the FIRST charge of the car and then get crazy degradation for the 2nd or 3rd cycle... then marketing this car has having 85kWh is also bad faith in my opinion.
llavalle
Member
Also.. case in point : The software limited 60 (75 pack) had an actual usable capacity of 60kWh... no buffer or anything. The 85 has a 4kWh buffer.. so supposed to have 81kWh usable. why so? Why would a 60 have 60 usable and a 85 have 81 usable (not even counting the 81 is probably 78 or 79 as we're discussing right now)
I guess the reason is "just because". Tesla has been playing capacity game since day 1.
I guess they decided to stop that game with the 100kWh model.. which, surprisingly, has around 100kWh of capacity .. even after 3-4k KMs
I guess the reason is "just because". Tesla has been playing capacity game since day 1.
I guess they decided to stop that game with the 100kWh model.. which, surprisingly, has around 100kWh of capacity .. even after 3-4k KMs
Agreed, speculation, and I wanted you to acknowledge this. So I do not understand how you can dismiss data that does not fit your conclusion? Based on speculation? Seem to be a less than rigorous approach.
I would say that OP is not correct. You are referring to 81-82kWh (again I did not see any data, just taking it at face value) but OP indicated that "85" pack is "missing" about 4.3 kWh of capacity., which comes to 80.7kWh, 77 usable per the OP. The data do not match.
Last edited:
Once again I am discussing what I posted. Based on EPA data 85kWh battery has total capacity of 85.75kWh, 81.75kWh usable. This is not consistent with what was posted in OP on this thread.
llavalle
Member
I'm dismissing data from a car in which the BMS hasn't seen a full battery cycle. That is battery 101. It has nothing to do with any of my conclusions.
As for the 81-82, I'd have to dig is some of my early CAN logs but IIRC, BMS reported 77.7kWh of usable capacity + 4kWh buffer on my 85D that had around 3500kms. 77.7+4 = 81.7kWh. That's 3.3kWh less than 85kWh.
Also : My car reports the following value "VAPI_ratedWattHourPerMile,290.000". With 270miles of range... that's 78.3kWh. Add the buffer and you're at 82.3... still short 2.7kWh.
First month I had the car I did a long ride and numbers did not add up to 85....
First road trip with the car - weird range behavior - 85D
See my post #5.. I was pretty close with my guesstimate of 291wh/mi
I'm not saying it's missing 4.3 or 4.7 or 2.7.. all I'm saying is that battery clearly can't spill out 85kWh of power.
As for the 81-82, I'd have to dig is some of my early CAN logs but IIRC, BMS reported 77.7kWh of usable capacity + 4kWh buffer on my 85D that had around 3500kms. 77.7+4 = 81.7kWh. That's 3.3kWh less than 85kWh.
Also : My car reports the following value "VAPI_ratedWattHourPerMile,290.000". With 270miles of range... that's 78.3kWh. Add the buffer and you're at 82.3... still short 2.7kWh.
First month I had the car I did a long ride and numbers did not add up to 85....
First road trip with the car - weird range behavior - 85D
See my post #5.. I was pretty close with my guesstimate of 291wh/mi
I'm not saying it's missing 4.3 or 4.7 or 2.7.. all I'm saying is that battery clearly can't spill out 85kWh of power.
Ok, so what explains the EPA report above that shows 85.75 kWh capacity?
Also, with all that data you were supplied by the former Tesla employee, do you still stand by your original numbers you posted in this thread for all the different configurations?
llavalle
Member
I would like to also point out that this 85.75kWh value is labeled as a "calculated capacity".. not measured...
As I stated in my first reply.. the EPA's calculation is meant to convey the amount of electricity the car will pull from the wall to perform a set of simulated driving conditions... They don't have the means nor the intentions of measuring the actual battery capacity of any EV...
As I stated in my first reply.. the EPA's calculation is meant to convey the amount of electricity the car will pull from the wall to perform a set of simulated driving conditions... They don't have the means nor the intentions of measuring the actual battery capacity of any EV...
You are mixing recharge event data with charge depleting test. The 85.75kWh is based on charge depleting test. DC side of the battery. Has nothing to do with electricity pulled from the wall.
Similar threads
- Question
