Well you can't have it both ways. You cannot say that you will save on gasoline, and then say that the ranger service visit fees don't count, especially since they will eat up the money you just saved on gasoline.
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Tesla's continuing viability as a company thread.
- Thread starter qwk
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- Tesla Inc.
If that's truly the case, then presumably you believe Tesla is a dead company at this point?
surfingslovak
Member
I completely agree with this view, and wanted to raise it in the other thread as well. What Tesla does with the 40kWh trim suggests to me that they don't want larger sales volume, for whatever reason. Perhaps they are not ready for it. While it's foolish to read too much into daily stock price moves, today's drop would indicate that there are at least a few others that share this view, and are less bullish on the company as a result.
smorgasbord
Active Member
I'll need to go back and review my footage of talking with the relevant engineers, but my recollection from the October Factory event was that Tesla has no plans to support CHAdeMo at this time.
Welcome to the world of FUD, where a real car that thousands of people have ridden in, with real pricing and a real schedule for deliveries is compared to a couple of sketches and a named model year.
But, that doesn't seem to be Tesla's plan. Between aggressive pricing per kWh on the larger batteries ($445/kWh!), better warranties on the larger batteries, and availability of QC on the larger batteries, Tesla apparently wants to sell more longer range cars initially.
If you think about it, people considering 160 milers and using Quick Charging frequently would be better off with the 230 miler instead. When you factor in how long it'll take Tesla to build its QC infrastructure, they're going to be spaced much further apart than the 160 milers can count on reaching. In years to come, when there are more QC stations closer together, then it may be practical to have a smaller battery car with QC, but I think it would just lead to frustration by today's owners, and that's not something Tesla wants since they're in it for the long haul.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
No - I'm fairly sure (as I said elsewhere) that Tesla will change the decision on the QC once they figure out they can't make their sales target without a sizable 160 miler sales.
For the record, I think Tesla is not viable as an independant company in the long run. It will be taken over my another OEM and become their EV brand. Question is - will it be taken over in a strong position or near bankruptcy.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
It would be "FUD" if this was not backed by $5 Billion investment Nissan is making. You should be rather insulated from EV news from around the world if you think Infiniti EV is vaporware.
Ofcourse, Tesla wants to sell more of the larger range models. Every salesman dreams about upselling all the time. That doesn't mean you can survive by greatly handicapping your most advertised $50k model.
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Well said. Even if there isn't a strong technical reason for not including quick charging in the 40 kWh pack, it could be a business decision. Maybe the added hardware needed for quick charging eats into the margin of the 40 kWh car too much.
The Lexus ES and Mercedes C-class are not the right comparators from those companies. The Lexus LS and Mercedes E-class are the cars that most closely match the Model S. LS460 MSRP is $67,360-$75,480; E-class is $49,800-$64,800 (again, according to Motortrend.com)
Sums up my feelings nicely. It doesn't seem like logical and reasonable discussion is being had. There's no countering of points, just spinning of facts to suit the views. You're comparing the base S to a car no one has any real details on?
No one is "defending" Tesla. I don't know if it's a technical or a business decision to exclude QC capability, but I AM of the opinion that if range is an issue you would likely be in a higher pack anyway (which I've done), and if cost is an issue AND you want range, then perhaps wait for Bluestar. Tesla is selling a BMW/Mercedes/Audi competitor, not a Nissan or Toyota competitor. The prices are out, buy the car that suits your needs and your budget. If the car doesn't suit your needs and budget, then don't buy it.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Seriously, this is your "logical", "reasonable" post ?
I'm comparing the base S to an upgraded Leaf (which is what Infiniti EV will be).
It seems like a fair comparison to me. A decked out Leaf is going to be in the same range as a bottom end Model S. If I've got $50k to spend, I'm certainly going to compare them. I did a similar things with houses: big houses in not great locations, smaller houses where I wanted them, newer vs. older, etc.
It was all about weighing what I could get vs. what I wanted for a particular budget. I can see folks preferring the highest end of a Leaf rather than the lowest end of a Tesla.
Sure and not buying it has been very much something I'm considering. It's not that I mind the prices as shown, it's the prices as shown with the added 20-40% markup for Norwegian models which is pricing me out of the Model S.
I would have made a very good customer advocate for Tesla but the way this is heading that looks less and less likely. The total luxury sedan market is what, maybe 1%-2% of the car market here in Norway where the MiEV has alone about 2% of the total car market. Add inn the C-Zero and Ion and we are talking 3% of the total market this year. A competitively priced Model S could realistically grab maybe 5-10% of the total car market here in Norway, at least the first years. The way the prices are heading and with a very unattractive sedan shape instead of a station wagon shape I'm guessing 0,5 to 1% of the market. THAT's what I believe is the big loss.
Car sales in general is trending down in Europe, EV sales even more so. Luxury car sales in China is usually aiming for wastefull cars as a statement, and EVs don't sell very well there either.
Still 20k cars isn't much so in spite of what lagging Roadster sales in Europe and Asia tells us selling 20k cars shouldn't be that hard.
Cobos
If I'm buying any new car it's going to be an EV. Currently that looks like Leaf, MiEV, Model S or FocusEV in Norway. So I'm comparing wildly different cars as long as they are EVs. I'm probably not the only one thinking like that.
Cobos
smorgasbord
Active Member
Have you ridden in a prototype Infiniti EV?
Have you sat in or even touched a prototype Infiniti EV?
Have you seen a prototype Infiniti EV?
Have you seen the specs for the Infiniti EV?
Have you seen a actual concept car version of the Infiniti EV?
Have you seen a photo of the concept version of the Infiniti EV?
All we've seen are sketches. A whole 2 of them. That's the very definition of vaporware in my dictionary. We'll have to wait until the 2012 Geneva Motor Show to see something more. Oh, and Nissan is not investing $5 Billion in this particular model.
Right now, it looks like Tesla will have at least 2 years of Model S sales under its belt before the first Infiniti EV hits the streets - unless you can point to a faster concept car to production car timeline that actually happened for an EV.
Well, it's not "greatly handicapping" to many people, who will not even a half hour "refill time" to go another 80 miles unreasonable. They'll more likely pass or get the larger model anyway. You're trying to make spending time a viable alternative to spending money, but I think Tesla believes the upscale market for the Model S considers their time very valuable. They believe their customers will not want to sit on the side of the road for 30 minutes every 90 minutes on longer drives.
But, again, the true handicap is not the lack of QC, it's the lack of QC infrastructure to have enough chargers spaced closely enough to enable an effective 135 mile range vehicle to go longer distances reasonably. Tesla is better off in the long run not disappointing their early customers.
This is the important point I think. Tesla would need to install a quick charger every 100 miles instead of every 150 miles which would greatly increase the roll out cost. I think they'll phase out the 40 kWh pack in a few years anyway as costs come down. Maybe they'll allow you to upgrade your pack and add in whatever hardware is needed for fast charging.
smorgasbord
Active Member
Um, it doesn't look like an upgraded Leaf to me:
And when you consider the low-end Model S has twice the real range of the Leaf, a 17" touchscreen display, seating for 5+2, larger cargo capacity, etc., the low-end Model S is quite compelling against a swoopy Leaf with QC.
