The «Full» in Full Self-Driving Capability

[Dutchie]

And one more time. No promise of retrofits. Just states it is possible when the sensor suite is the same (So excludes hw2.0 cars)

If that is the case, they will find themselves in courts pretty soon as they stated that cars with 2.0 ready for full self driving. That is why I bought the car,
We will see what happens..

 

[kvandivo]

verygreen - you could very, very well be 100% correct. I don't have a crystal ball, and you have a lot of behind the scenes expertise that I certainly don't... But I think you should change your tag line from 'Curious member' to 'Jaded'.

 

[mongo]

There are certain steps in software that take more than 30 minutes of wall clock time.

I am not discrediting the hw3 upgrade, I am just showing another thing that Musk said that is not really true unless you want to read his words really narrowly as "you can plug the new computer in under 30 minutes, but the car would be undriveable after that until you perform another 30+ minutes software mating procedure".

hw3 computer could be plugged into hw2.5 cars, I never disputed that. But hw2.0 is a different story too. Over time all these discrepancies add up.

Is there really any data that cannot be extracted before the car and tech are co-located?

If you plan ahead:

1. Person signs up for AP swap
2. Cat get transitional SW loaded (that handles current and HW3)
3. Person goes to SC, or mobile service comes to them
4. Tech installs HW3 module with correct SW version
5. Module and car pair
   
6. Car is returned, or mobile service leaves

No reason to think they don't have a HW2.0 swap version of HW3 (or interface module).
Same transcript:

Peter Bannon -- Director of Hardware Engineering

Hi, this is Pete Bannon. The hardware 3 design is continuing to move along. Over the last quarter, we've completed qualification of the silicon, qualification of the board. We started manufacturing line and qualification of the manufacturing line. We've been validating the provisioning close in the factory. We built test versions of Model S/X and 3 in the factory to validate all the finish of the parts and all the processing flows. So, we saw a lot of work to do and the team is doing a great job and we're still on track to have it ready to go by the end of Q1.

 

[verygreen]

Cat get transitional SW loaded (that handles current and HW3)

no need for that. All current firmwares have support for hw2, hw2.5 and hw3

Tech installs HW3 module with correct SW version

This is trickier than you think, so this is always done in the car after any module changes to ensure all components run the same version. The procudere is called "Firmware redeploy". It takes mroe than 30 minutes on S/X.
Moreover, all current autopilot hardware actively tries to not work if you try to power it off outside the car which is really annoying (ask me how I know).

No reason to think they don't have a HW2.0 swap version of HW3 (or interface module).
Same transcript:

I don't see anything about hw2 in that quote. only about s/x and model3?

This is not to say this cannot technically be done, but the sensors are still different and also they'd need quite a limited run of those unit that cannot be all that economical.

 

[electronblue]

I still don’t see @verygreen ’s pessimism on AP2 specifically.

There are reasons to be worried but I don’t consider AP2 spesifically to be a reason to worry (regarding HW3 swap that is). Whatever differences between swapping a Model S/X AP2 and AP2.5 APE are they can be compensated in software and in the retrofit kit probably quite easily — it will not need two different units, maybe some adapter cables at most in my guess.

 

[mongo]

This is trickier than you think, so this is always done in the car after any module changes to ensure all components run the same version. The procudere is called "Firmware redeploy". It takes mroe than 30 minutes on S/X.
Moreover, all current autopilot hardware actively tries to not work if you try to power it off outside the car which is really annoying (ask me how I know).

Sure, but if you pre-deploy the car and and the HW3 module, it would be plug and play, yes? i.e. can you swap modules between two identical cars without redeploying?

Tesla can run an AP module outside of the car. Not that they would need to if it comes from the manufacturer with proper software on it.

 

[iTech]

Sure, but if you pre-deploy the car and and the HW3 module, it would be plug and play, yes? i.e. can you swap modules between two identical cars without redeploying?

Tesla can run an AP module outside of the car. Not that they would need to if it comes from the manufacturer with proper software on it.

Running firmware redeploy takes ~30 minutes. So even if the tech is sitting there waiting ~30 minutes, it won't be a ~10 swap as Elon states. Whenever you swap hardware you have to redeploy.

 

[mongo]

Running firmware redeploy takes ~30 minutes. So even if the tech is sitting there waiting ~30 minutes, it won't be a ~10 swap as Elon states. Whenever you swap hardware you have to redeploy.

Any idea why? Whatever the modules are doing, couldn't that be pre-staged?

 

[iTech]

Any idea why? Whatever the modules are doing, couldn't that be pre-staged?

@verygreen might have better insight, but I'd probably say to do a full validation of everything inside the car.

 

[verygreen]

Sure, but if you pre-deploy the car and and the HW3 module, it would be plug and play, yes? i.e. can you swap modules between two identical cars without redeploying?

while theoretically possible, it is never done like that.

First, the firmware in the hw3 unit is provisioned at the factory at manufacturing time and it's a special factory firmware too.
So you need to provision the same that the car is actually running. Every car of course runs a different one.

You then need to update the gateway config on the mcu to let it know that you have a different component (more than one - as inside that ap enclosure there are at least 3 devices).

All in all - redeploy on the car is the thing to do, the most robust way to run it and ensure everything works correctly and there are no surprises.

That said I was able to replace an AP unit for another one that was running exactly the same version of firmware on all components without additional redeploy, so it is theoretically possible, just tricky. Esp. if you want to do any component updates outside the car.

 

[lunitiks]

Tesla should godd*** pay you folks for troubleshooting this in public

 

[iTech]

while theoretically possible, it is never done like that.

First, the firmware in the hw3 unit is provisioned at the factory at manufacturing time and it's a special factory firmware too.
So you need to provision the same that the car is actually running. Every car of course runs a different one.

You then need to update the gateway config on the mcu to let it know that you have a different component (more than one - as inside that ap enclosure there are at least 3 devices).

All in all - redeploy on the car is the thing to do, the most robust way to run it and ensure everything works correctly and there are no surprises.

That said I was able to replace an AP unit for another one that was running exactly the same version of firmware on all components without additional redeploy, so it is theoretically possible, just tricky. Esp. if you want to do any component updates outside the car.

So basically, small upside, huge downside

 

[Axael]

Keep this in mind. Tesla service manual on S/X states hw2.5 replacement time is .9 hours (=54 minutes). It's much longer on model3, but the service manual for that have not leaked out yet.

Sorry for the off-topic, but where can I get that service manual with estimated replacement times?

 

[electronblue]

In summary: Elon is probably exaggerating (likely for his own benefit) when he says 30 minutes.

Reality would probably be something in the range of 1-3 hours depending on how much they can pre-stage.

 

[mongo]

while theoretically possible, it is never done like that.

First, the firmware in the hw3 unit is provisioned at the factory at manufacturing time and it's a special factory firmware too.
So you need to provision the same that the car is actually running. Every car of course runs a different one.

You then need to update the gateway config on the mcu to let it know that you have a different component (more than one - as inside that ap enclosure there are at least 3 devices).

All in all - redeploy on the car is the thing to do, the most robust way to run it and ensure everything works correctly and there are no surprises.

That said I was able to replace an AP unit for another one that was running exactly the same version of firmware on all components without additional redeploy, so it is theoretically possible, just tricky. Esp. if you want to do any component updates outside the car.

There has never been a reason to do it this way either. If you know the state the car should be in when it is done, then there is nothing (other than painful coding and testing) needed to shave .5 hours * 300k cars = 17 person-years of effort off the process.

So basically, small upside, huge downside

No downside if it doesn't work (which would mean it wouldn't work for tech either) and a huge time savings on the upside.

In summary: Elon is probably exaggerating (likely for his own benefit) when he says 30 minutes.

Reality would probably be something in the range of 1-3 hours depending on how much they can pre-stage.

Keep in mind many of the employee test cars were likely switched to HW3 from stock 2.5, as were the test units before that, so Elon is not operating in a vacuum of data.

 

[electronblue]

Keep in mind many of the employee test cars were likely switched to HW3 from stock 2.5, as were the test units before that, so Elon is not operating in a vacuum of data.

My guess still stands. I don’t think he necessarily means 30 minutes literally but possibly to make it sound easier than it probably is.

 

[mongo]

My guess still stands. I don’t think he necessarily means 30 minutes literally but possibly to make it sound easier than it probably is.

So, what if the process involves mobile units swapping the hw, starting the redeploy, then moving on to the next car? Most issues could be fixed remotely. So 30 minutes tech time with a longer process.

 

[electronblue]

So, what if the process involves mobile units swapping the hw, starting the redeploy, then moving on to the next car? Most issues could be fixed remotely. So 30 minutes tech time with a longer process.

Many things are possible but I do not think that 30 minutes is a literal figure. I feel the number was chosen because it sounds good probably more so than because of how long a tech is needed for one car...

I would not be surprised if in reality the process took 2 hours for some cars. We have reason to believe the physical process for Model 3 is different for example.

No matter how you slice and dice this, 1-2 hours per car sounds much more realistic than 30 minutes to my mind. The latter sounds someone trying to downplay to time needed, really, not a realistic estimate.

Just my gut feeling.

 

[mongo]

Many things are possible but I do not think that 30 minutes is a literal figure. I feel the number was chosen because it sounds good probably more so than because of how long a tech is needed for one car...

I would not be surprised if in reality the process took 2 hours for some cars. We have reason to believe the physical process for Model 3 is different for example.

No matter how you slice and dice this, 1-2 hours per car sounds much more realistic than 30 minutes to my mind. The latter sounds someone trying to downplay to time needed, really, not a realistic estimate.

Just my gut feeling.

I think we can agree anything is possible with SW, but the question is whether the effort is worth it.
I've been on the bad side of module swap issues... if Tesla can keep it under 2 hours worst case, they are doing great.

 

[wcorey]

Just a heads up - it does not unless you read Elon's tweets in super optimistic manner which historically has been the recipe for dashed hopes later.

Model 3 Owners Club‏ @Model3Owners 19h19 hours ago



Model 3 Owners Club Retweeted Elon Musk

Just in case there’s any doubt, every purchase of FSD includes the upgrade to the AP HW3 computer. Prices are going back up on Monday. I’d suggest you jump in now for the discount.

Model 3 Owners Club added,


Elon MuskVerified account @elonmusk
Replying to @TonyTesla4Life @tesla_truth and 5 others
Correct
50 replies 26 retweets 217 likes