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The 85 does not make sense with the release of the 70D

Discussion in 'Model S' started by Kbsilver, Apr 9, 2015.

  1. Kbsilver

    Kbsilver Member

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    We all know there will be continual changes in the line-up. The 85 offers the same performance as the 70D but costs $5K more for 25 miles more range with no AWD, a terrible value. Even the 85D only offers 30 miles more range and a bit more acceleration for $10K more, not a terrific value. Unless the real world range numbers of the 70D come out lower than currently indicated, this sounds as an intermediate change, as big changes cannot be made without upsetting current owners or those who have already placed an order. Either more stuff will need to be included in the base 85 to put more value in it's cost (vs the 70D), or the 85 series soon becomes a 100 at about the same price.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. TTT

    TTT Member

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    As any other manufacturer whether a car innovator, cell phone manufacturer, or kitchen appliance, there will be innovations and improvements on products. Just enjoy the MS you have, whether it's a pre-auto pilot, plain 'ol 85, or P85D, it's still a blast to drive and beats 90% of the cars currently on the road.
    No regrets, otherwise you'll never be satisfied.
     
  3. Clprenz

    Clprenz Member

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    I agree, Tesla needs to come out with something with 50+ miles more. They will see there ASP drop more if not. I would expect a 100kWH battery soon, battery cells have changed for the 70 ( they don't need to lower margins/ only plausible reason for more value)
     
  4. Red Sage

    Red Sage The Cybernetic Samurai

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    ~*yawn*~

    So now, in addition to range assurance, Tesla Motors must offer range insurance? A guarantee that there will be at least a 50, 75, or 100 mile difference in range between trim levels... Just to make sure that potential buyers/customers feel that the difference in their base price points is 'worth it'...? Seriously?

    God.
     
  5. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    It is not a matter of a guarantee but if the 70D is so compelling some might decide to pay $10,000 less and just get that. It is a perfectly reasonable and valid premise. It is a matter of value for money and ultimately that's what people are going to look at when buying a car of a certain trim level. I tend to agree with the OP that if I were considering between a 70D and an 85D, I might just go for the 70D and save the $10K. Now if the 85D got upgraded to 100D or a higher capacity battery (which I think is right around the corner), then the $10,000 seems a more worthwhile investment.

    As it is when buying a Model S, it is the people who are buying the 70D the ones who are getting the best value. An additional $10,000 for 30 miles of range seems not a good value but the revised 0-60 of 4.4s certainly is. I think a higher capacity battery option is just months away and will be announced before the Model X comes out and that will make the $10,000 additional for the next trim level more worthwhile.

    And speaking of value, the people who are forced to pay for the "$5,000 Alcantara Package" so they can get the power lift gate are getting a horrible value. :rolleyes:

     
  6. EMP40

    EMP40 Member

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    I am not sure what the cost + reasonable profit is on 15kWH is but is sure seems like the 85 should be at least 95kWH for the $10K in price. After all it was 25kWH from the 60 to the 85 for the $10K.
     
  7. jimmyjohn

    jimmyjohn Member

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    Your words, eloquently stated, should be on a splash page to the Tesla Motors forum. Well said!

    I did make one small change, though. :)
     
  8. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    I opened this thread expecting to quickly refute your point... but I'm not so sure now.

    If looking only at myself and my current location and driving situations, that 25 miles extra really is valuable to me. I've arrived to or home from several key destinations (St. Louis, Kansas City, & Little Rock to be specific) with fewer than 25 miles or range remaining several times. There is no significant charging infrastructure between my home and those destinations at all at this time and if you look at the future map of Arkansas they don't even plan to have a supercharger there for many years. I suspect it will be a year or more before there is supercharging along my travel routes to STL, KC and Tulsa where I would also be likely to travel if given adequate charging infrastructure. So, for me, that extra 25 miles has real world value and permits me to travel where the 70D would not.

    That said, I think for nearly everyone else in the country, there will be more than adequate superchargers to make the 70D range more than adequate for most situations. And you're right, to get a faster car, with AWD, for less than the 85, that is a huge value and makes the 85 seem much less attractive if the 70 will meet your needs.

    I don't think I could go to a 70D at this point given my geographic locale, but if someone in a metropolitan area well connected with superchargers were to ask, I think I would advise the 70D over the 85...
     
  9. Kbsilver

    Kbsilver Member

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    #9 Kbsilver, Apr 9, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
    Nothing being said about guaranteeing, simply a discussion about marketing and what is likely to maximize sales or ASP for Tesla. Almost all who purchase a Tesla are technically savvy, and many I would venture to guess are in an engineering or other highly technical field. For this group price is always important, but I believe that VALUE may actually be more important. My original point is there is not enough difference in value in the current 70/85 line-up and something will probably give in the not too distant future. Yes there are always those with the type of bank account that money is no object for which this discussion is meaningless.

    Agree there is 'value" in shaving a second off the 0-60, but once you are in the 5 second range your already faster than probably 90% or better of the cars out there.

    PS I am not a current owner, only a prospective one.
     
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    as a prospective buyer, you may have the best perspective on the value judgement here as well.
     
  11. Thud

    Thud Member

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    Right now it seems that the 70D has the most "bang for buck" of any of the models.

    One thing that hasn't been considered though is battery charging rate. If the 70D can charge at the same kw as an 85, it's definitely got a lot of value going. If you sacrifice charging speed with the 70D, then there's still some value in the RWD 85 because it'll save you some time at Superchargers.
     
  12. efusco

    efusco Moderator - Model S & X forums

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    One other minor, but worth considering, point is the residual range over time with battery degradation. I usually keep my cars about 10 years, so loss of 10-20% of range is pretty significant in the smaller capacity 70D. Again, in 8-10 years that may be a non-issue with the growth of the supercharger network.
     
  13. ecarfan

    ecarfan Well-Known Member

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    Please provide a reliable source to support your belief that the 70D uses different cells than the 85 version. I have not read anything to support such a statement, but am open to learning why you believe the 70 uses different cells.
     
  14. MsElectric

    MsElectric Active Member

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    Doesn't Panasonic already have a higher capacity cell of the same size? When the 85kWh battery first came out, it was essentially 2010/2011 technology and there has been annual improvements to battery capacity since then that have not yet been offered so I think the timing is right for an update in battery capacity. Just prior to the Model X seems like a good time to come up wit a larger capacity battery so when the Model X is towing something it can still deliver decent range.
     
  15. thegruf

    thegruf Member

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    Thoughts?

    Well I can't agree with "terrible" value, $5K for an extra 25 miles range is valuable to some, also consider charging rates for the 70D which *may* not be the same as the 85KWH battery, and battery degradation over time.
    It is also now the only RWD model which will be a decider for a few.

    Compared to the 85D, 5.2 - > 4.4 secs is a massive perforamce jump and will translate to a significantly quicker car far beyond the 0.8 seconds for the sprint alone.

    As always though, different things will always be more important to some than others.
     
  16. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    That was my rationale in going with the 85 over the 60 two years ago. Currently, at about 45,000 miles I am seeing about 15% degradation at 100% SOC from new. (and there are oceans of comments on whether this is "real" or just the algorithm that calculates the number, so let's not get into that here).
     
  17. shelbri

    shelbri Member

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    I could not believe this was the new pricing scheme. I personally do not like the Alcantara fabric and would not be willing to pay $5k for the power lift gate. In fact, this could actually be a deal breaker for me as I love the power lift gate in my 85. My wife and are going to the Double Black Diamond event in Greenwich, CT tomorrow to test drive a P85D. I plan to bring this up as unacceptable!
     
  18. mknox

    mknox Well-Known Member

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    Finally... someone who agrees with me on that. I don't care for it either. I personally think the standard headliner they use looks higher class than the Alcantara. (my mother's 1987 Chrysler LeBaron has an Alcantara headliner).
     
  19. marcon

    marcon Member

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    battery production constrained?

    Could it be that Tesla actually doesn't mind people choosing the S70D over the S85 or S85D? Until the Gigafactory starts to ramp up production, they should still be battery production constrained. The S70D possibly carries less margin, but they can sell 17x S70D instead of 14x S85/S85D. Alternatively, they could also have adjusted margins, so Tesla gets the same profit per car produced no matter, which battery capacity is chosen.
    Since the Model X is coming out this year, it is also possible that against prior announcement there might be a Model X70. A 60kWh Model X would have gotten less than 200 miles, but a 70kWh Model X might go past that threshold.


    The most plausible explanation is that they just fill the available space up more than in the S60, but not as much as in the filled up S85 battery pack.
     
  20. Johann Koeber

    Johann Koeber Member

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    One more thing:

    To me it looks like the S85 is to be discontinued.

    - Currently it can be ordered, but only if you are clever enough to find it. Almost seems they 'hided' it
    - As stated above, not really a great deal in terms of value for money compared to the other offerings


    I guess they still have a batch of the 'old' skateboards. After selling all of these, no more RWD. Tesla is going to sell only AWD S and X.

    Next possible RWD might be the Model III.
     

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