The 85 does not make sense with the release of the 70D

[shelbri]

The same level of equipment amounts for a saving of $2000 if I chose the 70D.
70D adds dual drive & alcantara (which I don't care for actually)
S85 has a bit better range

For only $2k difference, I'd stick with the 85. You are going to be driving more simply because it is so enjoyable. Range is important both from a trip perspective and potential degradation (I've only lost 2 miles since new with just over 15k on the odometer so far but let's see what happens in 2yrs). Keep in mind that in the cold winter you will lose about 15-20% range since you need to run heat.

I just completed my first winter in New England (it was a tough one this year in the Northeast) driving weekly to Vermont with my Model S. With winter tires, I can confirm that the car is amazing without AWD in the snow.

Now for those saving $10-14k due to configuration changes ($5k lift gate is ridiculous), I'd give that a lot of consideration. Admittedly, as the supercharger locations increase, range becomes less and less a concern for trips.

Either way - great car. After 6 months, still in honeymoon phase.

 

[vchadha]

AustinP for sure do for the D it will have a much better resale value. Also the S85 you ordered last week has a 0-60 time the same as S70D so it is not faster.

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The thing to note is the S85D i ordered 2 weeks ago had a 0-60 time the same as the S70D now. To me recollection it had 2 x 188bhp motors. So now it makes sense to go for 70D and save big time plus if I was to order the new faster and more powerful S85D it would be costing me even more if i chose premium package etc

No you dont.
The 85D is substantially and noticeably faster than the 70D, 329hp vs 422hp, and until somebody proves it, the charging speed may be reduced too.
Also as the battery ages the range will come down, at what point does that range reduction become important for your driving?
Only you can decide that value though.

 

[MsElectric]

AustinP for sure do for the D it will have a much better resale value. Also the S85 you ordered last week has a 0-60 time the same as S70D so it is not faster.

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The thing to note is the S85D i ordered 2 weeks ago had a 0-60 time the same as the S70D now. To me recollection it had 2 x 188bhp motors. So now it makes sense to go for 70D and save big time plus if I was to order the new faster and more powerful S85D it would be costing me even more if i chose premium package etc

They just told you a lower HP figure but the S85D motors are rated higher. After the update it will accelerate to 60 in 4.4s and that's a lot faster then the 70D. But the 70D is the best value.

 

[AustinP]

Thank you all for the replies and advices. I eventually called the sales advisor that assisted me in the configuration and choices.
He told me they were quite overwhelmed and themselves only got a mail notification the morning before. So they had not much info yet.
that said, we discussed both options and he told me indeed all testa colleagues had already asked Elon to revise the pricing of the premium pack. I love it when they refer to him as Elon, just as if he was, wel just their buddy.
so he said I should see in the coming days a pricing reduction and indeed, I see this morning that this package is at 3k now.
I did not redo a full check on all the pricing, but this makes a 4k reduction if I go for the 70D.
Talking with my wife, which has a big say :smile:, she was more interested in the price reduction, and the range issues was actually a problem I would have to manage, not her. Telling her it would mean maybe more and/or longer stops when traveling, she was ok with that. So it is now more me that needs to make the honest decision towards me: will I be able to accept and manage my stress when or if such time comes when I would damn the day I chose $ versus range :biggrin:.
In french there is a say: to chose it to die a little bit...

 

[jkirkebo]

I don't want AWD. if this is to be the case, I'm really glad that I have the car that I have.

Same here, I really need that frunk space.

 

[chriSharek]

I have an S85D on order. Order was only confirmed 8 days ago. I am thinking of downgrading to 70D and save $9k. I get the same performance but lose 45km range which is not a big deal in my case. If i do not chose the premium package i save a further $6k, making the total saving of $14.5k with $500 penalty. I just cannot ignore such a huge saving. Any thoughts anyone?

Dude, you live in Montreal - YOU NEED AWD! I'm in Florida. I am seriously considering the 85 for additional range and frunk space. I have no need here for AWD . . . but I sure would like the improved performance!

126 days to my order date . . .

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This might be a silly question, but will the 70D "turn off" or "sleep" the front motor once up to speed and on cruise to extend the range?

I find that feature cleverly efficient - like cylinder deactivation on an ICE.

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So, the $100,000 question is whether Tesla will release the new and improved 85 battery (presumably the 100) BEFORE or AFTER the release of the Model X.

And is that scheduled for this Fall still?

 

[Larry Chanin]

Dude, you live in Montreal - YOU NEED AWD! I'm in Florida. I am seriously considering the 85 for additional range and frunk space. I have no need here for AWD . . . but I sure would like the improved performance!

Hey Chris,

Have you heard it rains here in Florida. :wink:

This might be a silly question, but will the 70D "turn off" or "sleep" the front motor once up to speed and on cruise to extend the range?

I find that feature cleverly efficient - like cylinder deactivation on an ICE.

Driving Range for the Model S Family

Despite this aerodynamic challenge, highway cruising is where the unique benefit of the dual motor cars, to torque sleep one of the drive units when not in use, is most apparent. Much like a modern computer that can actually sleep in between keystrokes, the dual motor Model S will quickly torque sleep a drive unit when torque is not needed and instantly wake it up as the accelerator is pressed to command more torque. It continues spinning while asleep and the digital torque wake up is so fast that the driver can’t perceive it. It is far superior to the slow and awkward engine startup on stop-start hybrid vehicles.

The software update to implement torque sleep will be downloaded to the dual motor fleet by the end of January 2015 and will substantially improve the range of dual motor vehicles by roughly 10%. All tables and graphs in this paper are shown including the benefits of torque sleep.

Larry

 

[supratachophobia]

I've seen no one raise the option that for the first time you could practically goto Tesla and say "here is my 85kwh battery and 10k dollars, please drop in a 100kw battery.” your model s and model x share a same platform and it stands to reason that a larger battery with updated cells would fit in the same physical space.

The obvious counter argument is that the skateboard battery for model x will be physically larger because there is physically more space. But I still submit that given a reasonable amount of money, 2012/13/14/15 model s owners could see themselves in an " updated ” S100, P100, or P100D in 2016.

 

[brucet999]

I've seen no one raise the option that for the first time you could practically goto Tesla and say "here is my 85kwh battery and 10k dollars, please drop in a 100kw battery.” your model s and model x share a same platform and it stands to reason that a larger battery with updated cells would fit in the same physical space.

The obvious counter argument is that the skateboard battery for model x will be physically larger because there is physically more space.

According to Product Specialist in Costa Mesa, X is expected to built on the same platform but with 4" longer body (presumably in the rear to allow for real 7 person seating).

 

[napabill]

I opened this thread expecting to quickly refute your point... but I'm not so sure now.

If looking only at myself and my current location and driving situations, that 25 miles extra really is valuable to me. I've arrived to or home from several key destinations (St. Louis, Kansas City, & Little Rock to be specific) with fewer than 25 miles or range remaining several times. There is no significant charging infrastructure between my home and those destinations at all at this time and if you look at the future map of Arkansas they don't even plan to have a supercharger there for many years. I suspect it will be a year or more before there is supercharging along my travel routes to STL, KC and Tulsa where I would also be likely to travel if given adequate charging infrastructure. So, for me, that extra 25 miles has real world value and permits me to travel where the 70D would not.

That said, I think for nearly everyone else in the country, there will be more than adequate superchargers to make the 70D range more than adequate for most situations. And you're right, to get a faster car, with AWD, for less than the 85, that is a huge value and makes the 85 seem much less attractive if the 70 will meet your needs.

I don't think I could go to a 70D at this point given my geographic locale, but if someone in a metropolitan area well connected with superchargers were to ask, I think I would advise the 70D over the 85...

And when you factor in the inevitable battery degradation over time, those 25 miles will become very important.

 

[Nigel16494]

I think everyone should forget miles. I did. Once I can display the battery in percentage that's when life is more predictable. I use 9% of my 85 to get to the office and 9% back. The car will accurately predict the remaining battery percentage for me on longer trips. On the old system I typically used 54 miles of range to go 40 miles. Driving style and terrain is everything. Having the biggest battery I can get is what I need. Sometimes being able to skip a notoriously busy supercharger is good deal for me.

 

[supratachophobia]

But with the larger battery comes the ability to accelerate faster and charge faster, not just go father.

And yes, with range degradation, even a few extra miles could mean the difference between a usable vehicle or a vehicle that no longer meets your needs.

 

[ecarfan]

@supratachophobia, It seems obvious to me that the S and the X are being built on exactly the same chassis platform. The space for the battery pack is the same. It's been almost three years since S was launched and there is no indication that Tesla is using different, higher amperage cells in the S today than were used in 2012. Yes, at some point the cells will change. But until the Gigafactory is up and running in volume, cell supply is limited to some degree and even then with Model 3 production demand for cells will be high. So I do not expect Tesla to offer affordable replacement, higher capacity battery packs for the X and the S. Every time a new pack is put into an X or an S that is a pack that cannot be used to build a new car. As long as Tesla is production constrained they won't offer inexpensive new packs.

I've seen no one raise the option that for the first time you could practically goto Tesla and say "here is my 85kwh battery and 10k dollars, please drop in a 100kw battery.” your model s and model x share a same platform and it stands to reason that a larger battery with updated cells would fit in the same physical space.

The obvious counter argument is that the skateboard battery for model x will be physically larger because there is physically more space. But I still submit that given a reasonable amount of money, 2012/13/14/15 model s owners could see themselves in an " updated ” S100, P100, or P100D in 2016.

 

[MSEV]

As a new S85D owner, I can certainly add a little here, though, if you read this thread carefully I am really not adding much new to this thread; it has been a great discussion.
I wondered and felt remorse when the 70D came out. Maybe I should have gotten it (not really a choice, I had my car).
I would have save $10k (I told myself).
I don't need to go that extra 30 miles.
For many, the 70D is the very best choice, and I am really glad it is offered. Go Tesla!
And the other issues that have come up here are important, more so for some, less so for others.
It makes no difference day to day, 70D to 85D, best I can figure.
But there is more. Range is crucial when you need it (or you have to plan better and have more time).
My older brother, a long time EV driver, convinced me to get the 85 over the 60--always get more battery he said. His experience is with an EV that goes 36 miles. He is the expert in many ways. (He now also has a Model S 85.)
My wife and I take a trip to KC a few times a year. We have (only very recently) a SuperCharger (SupC) at each end, and we used them both at least twice on the first M85S trip. With 199 miles between SupCs, which is not to be the norm (they will be closer), I had issues. I was a novice, and that is important. I was used to driving an ICE, going fast, 5 mph over the limit (80). I filled with energy at the Council Bluffs SupC, and took off for KC. I had to slow down after a bit, then slow down again. I started to worry if I could make it, looking at how far Nav said it was to my son's vs projected range. I got to my son's home with 31 miles left, and 21 miles to the SupC (Independence). Without an 85kW battery, I would not have made it and would have had to make different plans. My speed at the start of the trip and the hills going into KC made the difference, I believe.
Then on the way home, I filled at Independence and headed for Council Bluffs. I did not drive so fast (I think I started at 70 mph) but soon had to slow, with the Modes S warning us about a lack of power. There were very strong headwinds. So going back the 199 mi I had to get 45 min worth of energy (that is it's own whole story, with a red herring power stop) at a J1772 in NE City.
Sooooo, I need an 85. Maybe there will be a SupC between the two in the future (I think there used to be one on the Tesla map, but there is not one anymore since they revised it).
Could we make that trip with a 70? Absolutely. Would we have to plan better, allow more time, make sure of plugshare spots that work, drive slightly slower? Absolutely (IMHO).
Do I wish I could have saved $10k? Yes.
Am I glad I have more battery? Yes.
Does Tesla change its offerings at a pace faster than I ever imagined? Yes.
If you don't need to spend the money and don't want to, don't.
Realize, and if you have not driven an EV you won't completely get this until you do, that EPA range is not what you use to drive if you have any distance in your day/trip. You use projected miles, almost always less than the rated range miles. So when we are talking 240 vs 270, that is ideal (and may actually happen now and then--if that head wind had been a tail wind, I felt like I could have gone to Canada without charging).
In my experience, and I haven't done a winter yet (which will reduce milage in the MS, just like it does with ICEs), if heading away from home, I count on 200 miles not 270 with an 85, and make sure you understand backups and time issues with EVs.
Ten years from now this will be different. We are the future and early adopters driving Teslas.
So be careful and thoughtful. Either way it is a great car. I'm betting the 85 will be replace within a year, just as the 60 was. My 2 cents.

 

[supratachophobia]

@supratachophobia, It seems obvious to me that the S and the X are being built on exactly the same chassis platform. The space for the battery pack is the same. It's been almost three years since S was launched and there is no indication that Tesla is using different, higher amperage cells in the S today than were used in 2012. Yes, at some point the cells will change. But until the Gigafactory is up and running in volume, cell supply is limited to some degree and even then with Model 3 production demand for cells will be high. So I do not expect Tesla to offer affordable replacement, higher capacity battery packs for the X and the S. Every time a new pack is put into an X or an S that is a pack that cannot be used to build a new car. As long as Tesla is production constrained they won't offer inexpensive new packs.

You are forgetting the money one would give them. They aren't going to pass up money, especially with them getting in return, an 85kwh battery to be used elsewhere. Either pieced out into a 60 or 70, or remanufactured and placed in a CPO. There is a reason they have tried to stay modular and tried to keep supply chains lean. It makes them more nimble for this type of thinking.

A battery trade like that doesn't really create a loss for them as one might think.

 

[chriSharek]

As a new S85D owner, I can certainly add a little here, though, if you read this thread carefully I am really not adding much new to this thread; it has been a great discussion.
I wondered and felt remorse when the 70D came out. Maybe I should have gotten it (not really a choice, I had my car).
I would have save $10k (I told myself).
I don't need to go that extra 30 miles.....

Thanks so much for taking the time to post this. I'm about 6 months out from ordering. I had made the decision to get the 85 instead of the 60, just like your brother suggested to you. Now, I'm rethinking the AWD and better handling and performance than the S85. It's awfully tempting!

 

[ENZA]

There will probably be a 75D soon enough to make the 70D less bang for the money. e.g. from 40 to 60 to 85 to P85 to P85+ to P85D and now the intro of 70D. from pre-auto pilot w/o auto pilot, non auto folding mirrors to auto folding mirrors, non-ionic to ionic ac, non-parcel shelf to parcel shelf included, no blind spot warning to blind spot warning... Though quicker than all other auto-makers, every step of the way, we can see how the company is trying to evolve and yield more profit. And of course, it's up to the buyer who sees the value in their purchase and not regret. Like all companies, things are bound to get better and with more added value as the company advances.

 

[brucet999]

Thanks MSEV for a nicely laid out examination of options for 70D vs 85.

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There will probably be a 75D soon enough to make the 70D less bang for the money. e.g. from 40 to 60 to 85 to P85 to P85+ to P85D and now the intro of 70D. from pre-auto pilot w/o auto pilot, non auto folding mirrors to auto folding mirrors, non-ionic to ionic ac, non-parcel shelf to parcel shelf included, no blind spot warning to blind spot warning... Though quicker than all other auto-makers, every step of the way, we can see how the company is trying to evolve and yield more profit. And of course, it's up to the buyer who sees the value in their purchase and not regret. Like all companies, things are bound to get better and with more added value as the company advances.

The analogy to computers is apt here. If you put off purchasing your Tesla/computer now for fear of missing out on an improved version soon, you will never make the purchase.

 

[chriSharek]

The analogy to computers is apt here. If you put off purchasing your Tesla/computer now for fear of missing out on an improved version soon, you will never make the purchase.

Brucet99, I completely agree. I wish I was just procrastinating, but I'm waiting until my son is closer to 16 to give him my Volt and get my MS. It would be pretty dumb to have 3 cars in the house with only 2 drivers. I've waited years now, I'm sure I can wait another 6 months.

 

[brucet999]

I've waited years now, I'm sure I can wait another 6 months.

And that car will probably be better in some way than one you could order today.