The 85 does not make sense with the release of the 70D

[Canuck]

Two factors missing from your battery life analysis tend to lessen the difference that you predict:
1. 70D EPA tested at 244mi range, but Tesla calls it 240, so the true EPA range difference vs an 85 is only 21mi instead of 25.
2. 70D scored 33Wh/100 mi vs 38Wh/100 mi for 85. This translates to a lesser discharge rate putting 14% less stress on the battery.

Not missing from my analysis because:

1. EPA range difference is because of weight. The smaller battery has less cells, resulting in more cycling and generally higher state of charge, both bad for battery degradation.

2. What you call extra "stress" on the battery does not contribute to battery degradation, according to the research, unless you are generating heat while doing so, and Tesla keeps heat controlled both when putting electrons in fast, and when taking them out fast. Keeping the battery at a high state of charge, or very low state of charge, high or low temperatures, and larger cycles, contributes to battery degradation. Temperature is controlled but the other factors are worse with a smaller battery.

 

[chriSharek]

The increase in performance. I drove both several times and then just decided that having a bit more performance was worth the price delta. At this price point I didn't want to have regrets. I went with the pano roof, red paint, and upgraded sound.

@davidc18 - can understand this logic. I haven't driven the 85D yet and am afraid that if I do, i'll want it. I'd have to give up at least the upgraded sound and maybe the air suspension in order to afford the 85D within the wife's/CFO's budget. So, I'm currently leaning towards a fully loaded 70D, but the additional range, faster SC charging time, and performance may very well be worth the additional 10k.

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@davidc18 - One last question - did you consider the 85 (without the D)? Being in Florida, I'm debating whether the AWD is really needed - from a traction/snow/ice standpoint. We get torrential rains, yes, but the additional 5k to go from the 70D to the 85 has also intrigued me ...

 

[mwulff]

@davidc18 - One last question - did you consider the 85 (without the D)? Being in Florida, I'm debating whether the AWD is really needed - from a traction/snow/ice standpoint. We get torrential rains, yes, but the additional 5k to go from the 70D to the 85 has also intrigued me ...

I went for an 85 RWD even though I live in a climate with lots of snow and freezing winters. RWD + ESP + Great Tires = nice winter handling even from an RWD.

 

[davidc18]

Actually I would get the 70D before the 85.

 

[sublimaze1]

I agree, Tesla needs to come out with something with 50+ miles more. They will see there ASP drop more if not. I would expect a 100kWH battery soon, battery cells have changed for the 70 ( they don't need to lower margins/ only plausible reason for more value)

+1

As soon as we get a 100kWh "realm" battery, and I top 100K on my pack (I am getting closer each week) ... and the switch stations become commonplace, I think that is my upgrade plan.

 

[chriSharek]

Cost per mile of range Comparison

Actually I would get the 70D before the 85.

I was just doing the calculations for $/miles of range using the same configured car . . .

70D = $91,250+1,200 = $92,450; 240 miles of range; $385/mile range
85 = $96,250+1,200 = $97,450; 265 miles of range; $367/mile range
85D = $101,250+1,200 = $102,450; 270 miles of range; $379/mile range

​

So, now I'm further undecided! The range in the 85 is the most cost effective vehicle to get. It has more frunk space, but no AWD. Oddly enough, the 85D actually is more cost effective when you look at it from a $/miles of range and then throw in the faster 0-60 ....

 

[0Q991]

I was just doing the calculations for $/miles of range using the same configured car . . .

70D = $91,250+1,200 = $92,450; 240 miles of range; $385/mile range
85 = $96,250+1,200 = $97,450; 265 miles of range; $367/mile range
85D = $101,250+1,200 = $102,450; 270 miles of range; $379/mile range

​

So, now I'm further undecided! The range in the 85 is the most cost effective vehicle to get. It has more frunk space, but no AWD. Oddly enough, the 85D actually is more cost effective when you look at it from a $/miles of range and then throw in the faster 0-60 ....

My personal opinion is that the jack of all trades is the 85D. Bigger battery (most range, faster charging, less degradation), amazing (but not insane!) performance. If hunting for an all in one car to drive every day, it's what I would go with.

On on the other hand, the decision becomes murkier if you are hunting for "another" car, meaning if you already have a weekend warrior car, etc. Then, the question is do you shop simply to fulfill your needs for the weekday cruiser and pocket the $10k over the 85D?

Note that I've omitted the 85--in my mind, the tea leaves show Tesla going all D soon. I wouldn't be shocked if there are future updates that may even (somehow) improve the performance of the D cars with how they interact, etc.

Tough choice! But great options and we're all fortunate to be in this position!

 

[Doug Darby]

Having driven a Nissan Leaf for almost 3 years I will Always buy the longest range available hence the 85D I took delivery of 2 weeks ago. 20 miles may seem insignificant until I need 15 of them. But of course that is just my opionion and I put my money where my mouth is on this one...

Just lovin my 85D... More and more every day...

 

[mragone]

Having driven a Nissan Leaf for almost 3 years I will Always buy the longest range available hence the 85D I took delivery of 2 weeks ago. 20 miles may seem insignificant until I need 15 of them. But of course that is just my opionion and I put my money where my mouth is on this one...

Just lovin my 85D... More and more every day...

I'm in the camp of getting a drivers car. I think the 85D puts a smile on my face every time I hit the accelerator, moreso than the 70D. For 10K difference I think it's worth it.

 

[chriSharek]

I'm in the camp of getting a drivers car. I think the 85D puts a smile on my face every time I hit the accelerator, moreso than the 70D. For 10K difference I think it's worth it.

mragone, I think you're right. I need to schedule a test drive of the 85D. I really thought the accelleration of the 70D was lackluster to say the least. So, if the 85 is dying a slow death, where do I save $5k to pay for the upgrade to the D? Air suspension and Sound? Air suspension & ______?

 

[0Q991]

mragone, I think you're right. I need to schedule a test drive of the 85D. I really thought the accelleration of the 70D was lackluster to say the least. So, if the 85 is dying a slow death, where do I save $5k to pay for the upgrade to the D? Air suspension and Sound? Air suspension & ______?

If the 85D is the all-in-one car. The daily and the sporty--and if you do not plan on selling / trading in less than 3 years, just tick all the boxes! Making the most of the experience of ownership may very well outweigh agonizing over which item(s) to cut out to save $2,500-5,000. The last thing you want is remorse over the option you didn't get.

Just my $0.02.

Sounds like you're about to pull the trigger on an 85D, btw.

 

[AMPd]

mragone, I think you're right. I need to schedule a test drive of the 85D. I really thought the accelleration of the 70D was lackluster to say the least. So, if the 85 is dying a slow death, where do I save $5k to pay for the upgrade to the D? Air suspension and Sound? Air suspension & ______?

That's not good to hear, I'm awaiting my 70D, I hope the acceleration is good enough for me!

Yes I went old school and ordered it without test driving it!

 

[pmoa]

That's not good to hear, I'm awaiting my 70D, I hope the acceleration is good enough for me!

Yes I went old school and ordered it without test driving it!

It's no where near as thrilling as a P85D but the 70D was more than adequate during acceleration. You won't be sorry

 

[Max*]

That's not good to hear, I'm awaiting my 70D, I hope the acceleration is good enough for me!

Yes I went old school and ordered it without test driving it!

I test drove both, it depends what your expectations are. I thought the 70D acceleration was enough.

 

[AMPd]

It's no where near as thrilling as a P85D but the 70D was more than adequate during acceleration. You won't be sorry

I test drove both, it depends what your expectations are. I thought the 70D acceleration was enough.

Thats good to hear!
Im coming from a lexus rx where the acceleration is not the quickest

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Well I ordere the 85D couple of days before the 70D announcement, considered it when announced for a moment and quickly decided on the 85D (swapped to ocean blue though). The main other city I drive to is 180km away. Round trip is 360km. Add 10-20km local driving and it's 380km. That's about borderline the region the 85kWh battery does (I know because I've driven in my 2013 Model S this a number of times). In winter I won't make it barely or I'll have to hypermile a bit. for the 70D it would mean on all trips I make it to the other town, but only half way back. And then I need to charge for 30 minutes. So the 2h drive becomes 2.5-3h drive. I do this trip at least once a month. When teaching I do it every week...

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll rather take the bigger battery...

 

[Electricfan]

Here are my reasons for choosing the 85S:

1) I hate the feeling of the front wheels pulling. I grew up driving a rwd (Ford Custom 500, 1965 model) and love the feeling of the rear wheels pushing, front wheels only steering

2) I drove the 85D, and a P85D - did not like the noise from the front motor. I drove a 2013 Model S for two years and I could hear the difference, no question

3) Reliability - this may not be a good reason, but my logic says two motors, inverters, drive trains vs one will be a source of trouble down the road. Hope not, but in my experience, keeping it simple is never a mistake

4) Bigger battery will last longer - this is certain. How much we don't know, but it can't hurt to have 15 extra kwh. I too would buy a 100kwh if it were available. My luck the day after I pick mine up it will be.

5) Faster charging - less supercharger taper

I have to comment on a couple of posts above:

The obvious counter argument is that the skateboard battery for model x will be physically larger because there is physically more space. But I still submit that given a reasonable amount of money, 2012/13/14/15 model s owners could see themselves in an " updated ” S100, P100, or P100D in 2016 supratachophobia
---- Sorry, I do like the way you think, but no way will this happen in 2016, most likely it will never happen. Tesla wanted TWO THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS to retro-fit folding mirrors on my car. (Expletive deleted goes here)

If it comes down to range, it'd be cheaper to pay for gas in my wife's SUV than to pay an extra $100-$150 every month. Max*
---- Careful!! You do realize this is a forum that concentrates on electric vehicles, right? At least a dozen people passed out when they read that....

I really thought the accelleration of the 70D was lackluster to say the least. chriSharek
---- I did pass out when I read that. 5 second 0 to 60 is "lackluster"??? You have some high, high standards my friend...

 

[brianman]

The obvious counter argument is that the skateboard battery for model x will be physically larger because there is physically more space. But I still submit that given a reasonable amount of money, 2012/13/14/15 model s owners could see themselves in an " updated ” S100, P100, or P100D in 2016 supratachophobia
---- Sorry, I do like the way you think, but no way will this happen in 2016, most likely it will never happen. Tesla wanted TWO THOUSAND SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS to retro-fit folding mirrors on my car. (Expletive deleted goes here)

Folding mirrors (and other retrofits) are labor intensive. It's almost always cheaper to include a feature at manufacturing time, rather than to retrofit it later.

As for the batteries, they are somewhat designed to be swapped. Many (most?) owners expect to be able to replace their existing battery with an equivalent capacity "refresh" 8-15 years after purchasing the vehicle. Opting to get a larger capacity pack at that time is likely affordable with the gigafactory online.

You're comparing apples (folding mirror retrofit) and oranges (higher capacity pack in the same form factor) a bit here.

 

[chriSharek]

OQ991, I think you're right! Thanks for this post. I'm going to work on the wife - I just need another $50/month to get my absolute dream car. The P85D is insane - I don't need that, but I think you hit it right on the head that the 85D is the daily and sporty car. I'll keep it at least 3 years. My Volt will be 4 on Saturday . . . I just hope I can convince the wife. Thanks again for this post.

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That's not good to hear, I'm awaiting my 70D, I hope the acceleration is good enough for me!

The accelleration was fine - it wasn't impressive like the P85 or P85D I've been in. I was hoping it was a little quicker.

If I can't get financial approval from the wife on the 85D, the 70D will work just fine. I'm trying to play the range card on her and remind her of that additional piece of mind. I don't think she realizes it's almost a second faster 0-60! Shhh. Don't tell her!

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Well I ordere the 85D couple of days before the 70D announcement, considered it when announced for a moment and quickly decided on the 85D (swapped to ocean blue though). The main other city I drive to is 180km away. Round trip is 360km. Add 10-20km local driving and it's 380km. That's about borderline the region the 85kWh battery does (I know because I've driven in my 2013 Model S this a number of times). In winter I won't make it barely or I'll have to hypermile a bit. for the 70D it would mean on all trips I make it to the other town, but only half way back. And then I need to charge for 30 minutes. So the 2h drive becomes 2.5-3h drive. I do this trip at least once a month. When teaching I do it every week...

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll rather take the bigger battery...

Mario - you touch on something that is very important - it's all about your daily/monthly/annual trips and where superchargers are located. I've been really good at finding L2 Chargers in my Volt for the past 4 years. I regularly go 60-80 miles in a single day with it by charging at home, work, and other public chargers. Because of this, I'm not as concerned about the range, but wanted the increased performance of the 85D. (the wife will enjoy the additional range and piece of mind)

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3) Reliability - this may not be a good reason, but my logic says two motors, inverters, drive trains vs one will be a source of trouble down the road. Hope not, but in my experience, keeping it simple is never a mistake

I really thought the accelleration of the 70D was lackluster to say the least. chriSharek
---- I did pass out when I read that. 5 second 0 to 60 is "lackluster"??? You have some high, high standards my friend...

Brianman - thanks for the post - I really value your input. I'm also considering that 85S from a simplicity and battery capacity standpoint. My wife (industrial engineer) would completely agree with you about the additional motors = additional potential problems. "Keep it simple stupid" she would say to me.

I traded in my 2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8 for my Volt. That truck was 6.1 L AWD and screamed 0-60 in 5 seconds. Perhaps it was the lack of any sound that made it feel slower in the 70D, but comparing this 2015 to my truck of 8 years ago it simply wasn't that quick.

Having said that, I will never go back to gas. Never. But, if I'm spending $100k on a car, I want it to be exactly what I want - and I think that additional second off the 0-60 time will be just enough! As OQ991 pointed out, I'm probably looking at the 85D.

 

[Mario Kadastik]

Sure you can find L2 and even CHAdeMO etc chargers on the way, but it's still time charging. If the regular trip you make needs a charge in one and doesn't in the other, then that's a hefty time premium. If it requires in both, then oh well, but in my case the 70D required always charging and 85D will give me at least half a year where I don't need to charge unless something unexpected happens. And it's not much on peace of mind as we've got CHAdeMO chargers every 50 km or so here in Estonia so finding one is easy, it's more of the bother of having to stop when you could have gone straight home. Especially late at night.

With regard to going back to gasoline... no way. We started a Tesla rental business and as the demand was high enough I decided to just go with it and even though my 85D takes a few more months I've allowed my P85 to go out for rental and it was away for 2 weeks. What this meant was that I had to drive a Volvo XC60. Not a bad car, but ... damn it feels ancient. The car startup to connect to my phone etc took a minute while it's usually instant connect on the MS. The throttle response, the lack of regen, the noise and smell of gasoline and the horror of actually having to fill the car up with the smelly stuff. Ugh... And of course I constantly forget to lock the doors and a couple of times walked away from the car while the engine was still running... *sigh*. Now sent my MS on a ferry to Tesla Stockholm and am driving our other rental P85+ while waiting for the next client, then it's back to Volvo again... At least until late-June, when my Ocean Blue S85D arrives