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The argument *against* a 2nd gen Model S & X

trayloader

Member
Nov 21, 2016
318
360
GERMANY
Look, this isn't complicated.

Model S has tail lights from 2012 w/ visible individual LEDs versus LED light pipes for all other models. Model S and X lack basic coat hooks and seat back pockets present in Model 3 at half the price. Model S/X dashboard looks dated compared to Model 3 and lacks the 3's revolutionary (and beautifully implemented) vent setup. Model S headlights received a POOR IIHS rating. Pano roofs no longer available on S. Model S and X both have incredibly wide and poorly designed B-pillar.

The above is just what I could recall off the top of my head. There are a substantial number of improvements that are needed, along with some evolution of the body style. Model S and X sales are in the proverbial toilet and Tesla needs to do something pretty sweet to revive the line.

waiting for a refresh of your attitude aka the first positive post towards Tesla. So sad.

It’s a wonderful elegant timeless car while everybody else is sketching ugly grimy caricatures.
 

MlTaylor619

Member
Jun 22, 2014
24
18
Garner, NC
There's been a lot of yammering about how "stale" the Model S is, in particular, and "in dire need of a refresh", and people asking on the forum whether they should buy one now or wait for the refresh that everyone seems to imagine must be coming soon.

I think Tesla have the right idea, sticking with a program of continual improvements and refinements rather than an "all new" model on a new platform. I don't think there's going to be a second generation S on a new platform any time soon. I won't say never, but there's a lot of logic behind keeping the current platform going for as long as possible. (And much of my thoughts on this could apply to the X as well, and even other Tesla models in the long run.)

The Model S is on its third complete suspension setup. Anecdotally, I gather they've gone through about five revisions of door handles. Remember all those failed door handles? Yeah, that doesn't seem to happen anymore with the new cars. Yellowing screens? Fixed. Failing SSDs? Supposedly fixed, we'll see. I'm not sure how many revisions of battery packs they've gone through, but it's quite a few.

And it occurs to me that if Tesla keep this up, and continue analyzing their failures and methodically improving parts of the car over time, they could eventually achieve something that no other car company even wants to do: They could make the most long-term reliable car in the world!

Other car companies have a lot of incentives not to do this. They have parts supply chains that are profit centers. They have armies of franchised dealerships that depend on revenues from repair and maintenance. And ultimately, they do want their cars to wear out and become unsustainable. Because then somebody, somewhere, has to go out and buy a new car. Ka-ching!

Tesla is different. They don't have franchised dealerships, and they made a strategic decision that their service centers are not profit centers for the company. In the long run, they want to be in the Robo Taxi business, which means failed cars will only cost them money in downtime and repairs. This is what the push for a million-mile battery is about, too.

That doesn't mean the S & X can't get stylistic refreshes, inside and out, and new features. Maybe they will, maybe soon. My argument is just that I expect it to all be evolutionary, not a sudden break with the past and an "all new" S on a new platform. As always, Tesla are doing their own thing in their own way without regard for the conventions of the rest of the car industry.
Some might argue that Tesla's $180/hr for service work is a lot of 'ka ching' compared to ICE dealers. In my area, service for my Honda Ridgeline is half of what I would pay for Tesla services. Still, to your point, service is not something my Tesla has a lot of need for.
 
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MlTaylor619

Member
Jun 22, 2014
24
18
Garner, NC
Legacy manufactuers are incentivised to come up constantly with new models and refreshes. They need to do this to motivate buyers to trade up to the "all new" models. They hold off improvement s until the new model is released.

Tesla does not have this issue. They constantly improve their existing cars. Implement the improvements as soon as they are available for production. Along the way they do constant OTA firmware updates to make existing cars more capable and up to date.

Model S has had major improvements along the way to keep them fresh. Got rid of the nose cone originally used to keep the phoney grills that ICE buyers were used to. Now more aerodynamic and more honest for an EV. Seats are new, suspension is new, display is updated, power is improved, range is improved, brakes are improved, lighting is better, software is faster, cars are better made, quieter, additional motor and air suspensions have been added. Cars can now tow, HEPA filter is available, etc.

Even the body, suspension, frame etc. have been improved as manufacturing technology had improved.

Little by little the cars have metamorphosised into what you can order today.

The fact that the cars are still stunning is high praise to the designers.
I basically agree that they made a 'perfect' car, so why change the looks. And yet, I think at some point we have admit that there is a little of bit of 'want something different' in all of us. There are 'cheap' upgrades that could be made to keep an iterative styling gradient moving along. Something as simple as updating the front or rear light assemblies to be thinner, or even just change the light rope lines in them, are things that set the old apart from the new. Not that I am really complaining. As long as my 2014 P85 looks essentially the same as a 2020, it helps my resale value.
 

mvsmucker1971

Member
Feb 11, 2020
10
15
Goshen IN
Having read all that, my 12/2013 Model S still attracts questions and compliments from passersby at 134,000 miles, something that has never happened in my many ICE vehicles over the years. That, and I’ve made a lot less CO2 and spent vastly less money owning the S compared to my Caddys, BMWs, and—Packards. Come to think of it, the Tesla S will make a very nice Classic!
 

S85D

Member
Jun 2, 2015
624
663
Austin, TX
Look, this isn't complicated.

Model S/X dashboard looks dated compared to Model 3 and lacks the 3's revolutionary (and beautifully implemented) vent setup.

I have bought 2 Model S Tesla's since 2015. If Tesla puts a $35,000 dash in a $100,000 premium car, they had better drop the price by $20,000. I will never buy another Model S if Tesla puts the utilitarian Model 3 dash in the Model S and does not drop the price. When Mercedes, BMW, Audi and other premium car manufacturers release their high end cars that can compete with the Model S, their dashes will make Tesla's dash look pathetic.
 

shellderp

Member
Sep 15, 2018
171
164
Ontario
nope, I got this repair done with the so called new parts and it's back after a few months..

Yellowing screens?
also not fixed.. is happening to new cars still

imo the look of the car is still great. I don't think there's much need to change there. Plenty could still be improved in the internals. Parking cameras, better rain sensor, blind spot indicators, vented seats would all be great improvements
 
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ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,375
7,490
Maine
I guess I don't see your reasoning. They've made significantly more on their model 3 and will continue that with the model y. I just don't see them redoing a model that doesn't help them skyrocket their stock price, which supports developing the Y and CT.

I would love a luxobarge model s to compete with the s class, and hope they do it, but I'm not so sure they will. (massage seats, whisper quiet inside, etc etc).

I think we're saying the same thing, differently.

If Tesla were more profitable, it could afford to put more effort into the high-margin, low-volume S and X.
The first step would be to make it technically up to par on charging with the 3, because charging rate is one of the two fundamentals of EVs.

Instead, all you'll see next is Plaid.
 
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Guy V

Member
Apr 22, 2015
362
1,038
St. Louis, MO
I think we're saying the same thing, differently.

If Tesla were more profitable, it could afford to put more effort into the high-margin, low-volume S and X.
The first step would be to make it technically up to par on charging with the 3, because charging rate is one of the two fundamentals of EVs.

Instead, all you'll see next is Plaid.
I don't *want* self-driving. If I have to drive somewhere I love driving the Tesla. I accept however, at my age, sooner or later I am going to *need* self-driving and I hope it arrives in time to be able to keep driving with that assistance. Until then I'm in no hurry for a "new, improved" Tesla, my old P85 is still awesome.
 

bluedog

Member
Dec 26, 2015
23
29
Lompoc, CA
I'm for staying with the existing body design. Yes, there are updates as mentioned above that would improve the car and those should, of course, be implemented as the production of S/X continues, but look at the Toyota Prius. My first of three was a 2007, i think. A beautiful body design that kept thru the next two. Now? You have some child's "Transformer" toy Prius design that is disgusting. Of course, this is all in MY head.
 

FreqFlyer

Member
Jan 24, 2019
756
2,661
Austin,Texas
Ok, I am confused, are you saying keep the design or the 8 year old platform? Everyone is going goo goo ga ga over the new stamped pieces used in the Y, so why should not the flagships of the company use the latest tech and production techniques to lower costs?

As someone previously stated maybe the S/X have done their job, and as EM has stated the 3/Y is the future. To update the S/X will cost billions and maybe the ROI is not there.
 
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Sybaseguru

Member
Nov 29, 2019
11
5
Glossop
The other side of the coin is that the purpose of Model S and X were to enable production of Model 3 and Y. To that end, they have served their purpose. I'd be surprised to see too much invested in "reviving" them in the future. They are not a flagship line in the traditional manufacturer sense, they are a means to an end, and that end will have been achieved as soon as the Y enters production.

Yes, but the obvious route is to allow them to act as a test bed for new ideas - 3 engines, different batteries, even new interiors etc. The way they are made allows rapid retooling at low cost. But they do need the model 3 and Y improvements as a start.
 

Tslacg

Member
Apr 5, 2016
200
108
Oklahoma city
There is more to having a halo car than sales. Chevrolet has the Corvette that has a trickle down effect on other products and image. Tesla would be foolish to drop the S and X. Most of the R&D for them have already been expensed so the additional costs for keeping/improving them is small relative to the return. Update the batteries, give them a 400+ mile range and faster charging. I can't see Elon letting the Taycan take the title of top EV.
I don't disagree with Tesla updating them continuously as they have done. But the point of this thread is a 2nd generation model s and x that would be completely rehauled, instead of the incremental updates we've seen.
 
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msm859

Member
Oct 23, 2019
334
442
California
I don't disagree with Tesla updating them continuously as they have done. But the point of this thread is a 2nd generation model s and x that would be completely rehauled, instead of the incremental updates we've seen.
Obviously the question is what is the definition of "2nd generation"? Will the plaid model be a 2nd generation if it has 3 motors and different battery with over 400 mile range and real 250 kw charging? How much does the body have to change to be 2nd generation?
 

S85D

Member
Jun 2, 2015
624
663
Austin, TX
Obviously the question is what is the definition of "2nd generation"? Will the plaid model be a 2nd generation if it has 3 motors and different battery with over 400 mile range and real 250 kw charging? How much does the body have to change to be 2nd generation?
The challenge with changing the Model S body is that Tesla's Model S has a .24 Coefficient of Drag. Any changes to the body that increases the Coefficient of Drag reduces the mileage range.
 

Jonathantuba

Member
Dec 2, 2017
151
162
UK, US and Europe!
My guess is that Tesla will continue as they are, bit by bit enhancing the S and X without any major redesigns - until they eventually replace with completely new models, maybe seeing the largely good reception of the Cybertruck, more based on that design.

Obviously the S and X have mainly served their purpose for Tesla and as Elon has said only continue to be made for sentimental reasons. They are no longer key to the company’s mission, or future.
 

msm859

Member
Oct 23, 2019
334
442
California
My guess is that Tesla will continue as they are, bit by bit enhancing the S and X without any major redesigns - until they eventually replace with completely new models, maybe seeing the largely good reception of the Cybertruck, more based on that design.

Obviously the S and X have mainly served their purpose for Tesla and as Elon has said only continue to be made for sentimental reasons. They are no longer key to the company’s mission, or future.

I would disagree. Although their initial mission may have been to bring enough revenue to fund the company and be able to then build the 3 and Y for the masses. There will always be a need for more upscale EV's. No reason for Tesla to abandon that market -and that does fulfill the ultimate mission - to replace all ICE vehicles with BEV's
 

FreqFlyer

Member
Jan 24, 2019
756
2,661
Austin,Texas
My guess is that Tesla will continue as they are, bit by bit enhancing the S and X without any major redesigns - until they eventually replace with completely new models, maybe seeing the largely good reception of the Cybertruck, more based on that design.

Obviously the S and X have mainly served their purpose for Tesla and as Elon has said only continue to be made for sentimental reasons. They are no longer key to the company’s mission, or future.

As boring as this sounds, its probably the most financially prudent thing to do.
 

malcolm

Active Member
Nov 12, 2006
3,072
1,729
Huh?

People are calling for some sort of re-design/refresh, but also seem to insist that the upcoming Plaid re-design/refresh doesn't count?

Is everyone hoping for an industry-norm refresh; the sort of thing that you could expect from Audi or Mercedes?

Why would Tesla bother with that?
 

outdoors

Always roaming
Aug 10, 2014
1,601
2,752
in the moment
Give me the current COD and styling and I might move on a new S. Make crazy changes to keep with styling stupidity of others. No interest. Classic styling. Hard for most to understand when they get a new car every 3 years.

Realistic, I am Cyber Truck and out. Life change timeframe fits. Done with sedans. Need clearance.
 

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