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The Cancer that is Phantom Braking

Discussion in 'Autopilot & Autonomous/FSD' started by Can37, May 7, 2020.

  1. Can37

    Can37 Member

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    Tesla's quest for self-driving is happening in a world where there AI/Machine learning has brain cancer. The last few versions have introduced new and "interesting" phantom braking issues and the symptoms have spread from Auto-steer to plain cruise control.

    In my case, I have a Model 3, no self-driving, my experience now on 2020.12.11.1 is that CC and AP will brake from 110 to 40kph at the same spots on the highway near my home. This seems to be at exits and is really dangerous. Due to COVID I have not tried out this version on a longer trip on a sunny day to see if the scared of shadows under bridges version of phantom braking is still there, I have no reason to suspect it has been fixed.

    I have zero confidence that Tesla is on the right track to safe driver aids at Level 3, due to some fundament issues with the current software.

    The current feature set is not stable or reliable, it's great to be excited about cones/ people in orange jackets / just about anything - but have you noticed that bikes are not picked up nearly as often now?

    Fawning over an ability to detect stop signs when you are in danger of getting rear-ended on the highway is not helping Tesla progress. They really need to focus on the basics and stop pushing new features.
     
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  2. DelPhonic1

    DelPhonic1 Member

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    The FSD potential is truly vast, but right now, it shows that the folks at Tesla are pretty overwhelmed at the moment. Last night a woman walked across the street looking at her cell phone was picked up but late. NOA slowed hard, but put back on the ‘gas’ way too early as the woman pondered up at the sky while at a really slow walk across the street. A bereft tick tock maybe? She didn't even notice my silent X. I was watching and monitoring intently, but we passed the woman on acceleration by only about 10 feet or so at speed (35mph). We almost shouldn’t be passing her foot path by law, until she steps onto the curb. Ohh to be a fly on the wall as those engineers are falling over themselves working feverishly trying to improve software over things like this. I’d buy them each several drinks if I could.
     
  3. LowlyOilBurner

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    I’ve noticed the same exact thing. Did you also notice the posted speed in the display changes as well when this happens? Leads me to believe this isn’t really phantom braking, but some glitch in speed limit data or something? Maybe Tesla should put their big boy pants on and pay MobilEye for the use of speed limit detection via cameras?

    In regards to traffic cones, there is a TON of road construction going on now in my neck of the woods, and it’s pretty impressive to see AP navigate through traffic cones and use them as lane markers.
     
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  4. totteraptor

    totteraptor Member

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    That is also my suspicion based in similar experiences. MObileEye holds the patent to 2030 so my car will a pile of rust before it gets real time speed limit detection. Teslas will never achieve any FSD without ability to read speed sign as you pass them - simple fact.
     
  5. gavine

    gavine Petrol Head turned EV Enthusiast

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    #5 gavine, May 9, 2020
    Last edited: May 9, 2020
    Elon tweeted yesterday that speed sign recognition is coming soon. I hope he didn’t mean 2030.

    Elon Musk on Twitter
     
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  6. Can37

    Can37 Member

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    2030 is soon in Elon time, it should happen about the same time as Cyber truck deliveries start.
     
  7. NHK X

    NHK X Member

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    My phantom braking has actually improved a lot, over the past 3 years.

    Currently, most that happen now don’t seem to be due to computer vision or AEB but local maps having incorrect speed limits. My freeways have had some construction and car will suddenly slow to some arbitrary 45 mile per hour limit when it was going 75.

    Once in a blue moon a shadow from an overpass will scare the system, and I have my foot ready to prevent suddenly decel if it’s happens. But these instances for me are more and more rare.
     
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  8. supratachophobia

    supratachophobia Active Member

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    The phantom braking is a result of the "Josh Brown update" from many years ago. Tesla is deciding to err on the side of caution rather than admit they can't fix this issue at this time.
     
  9. totteraptor

    totteraptor Member

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    Thanks for sharing that! Time will tell what soon means. Elon is not the most credible man I know.
     
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  10. Soda Popinski

    Soda Popinski Member

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    Now that you mention it, I've stopped getting phantom braking where I use to get it about 30% of the time on the 101S to 405S transition in Los Angeles. Under normal driving conditions, I usually handled it manually, due to congestion and the need to get one lane over. Since the pandemic, traffic has been light enough I can keep it on AP. Could have been the HW3 upgrade I got in early March or one of the OTA updates.
     
  11. DelPhonic1

    DelPhonic1 Member

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    #11 DelPhonic1, May 12, 2020
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
    I'd have to drive this beast longer to sort out the pattern of the phantom breaking. Not as much as I expected as of late. The stops sign breaking is very peculiar though. Just as frantic as the phantom breaking, I hear a triple rapid machine gun fire sounding clank-clank-clank as it begins a slow down for a stop sign. Its almost anti-lock breaking fast. Of course, SC says "that's normal".

    But without sounding like an SNL skit, using HW3 and 12.11.1 the NOA is very helpful in those multiple narrow lane type situations like you mentioned-- the wide 101S just before getting to the 405S. Very comforting and I'd say very skillful navigation with little room to maneuver thru the curves. Great job Tesla.
     
  12. nuts

    nuts Member

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    Neither is anyone in working for Tesla at any of the service centers.
     
  13. Knuppe

    Knuppe Member

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    Here in The Netherlands it’s 2 things:

    - an overpass or sign hanging over the highway; car drops speed rapidly, then accelerates again. Seems to be worse when cloudy (darker).
    - exits, even where 2 highways meet. If I’m driving 120kph where 100kph is allowed, the car will drop to 110kph when I take the exit. This is because the car sees the new speed limit. But it drops speed so fast is dangerous.

    Only use TACC, no Autopilot. Would have loved to have a normal CC, instead of having to babysit TACC.
     
  14. CyberGus

    CyberGus Not Just a Member

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  15. drtimhill

    drtimhill Active Member

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    As has been noted elsewhere, the MobileEye patent is very specific to their implementation. it's not clear that's a blocker, and as others have noted, Elon has already said speed limit detection is being worked on (but dont hold your breath).
     
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  16. CyberGus

    CyberGus Not Just a Member

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    If the computer has detected a pedestrian that will cause the car to take evasive action, it should honk.
     
  17. VanillaAir_UK

    VanillaAir_UK Supporting Member

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    That would confuse most humans too. There are lots of ways to confuse a human driver (dazzling lights, onscured road markings and signs being obvious ones from a very long list) that never get reported for obvious reasons, but it seems to be big news when a car gets confused especially when the confusion is done by a malicious act just to prove a point.
     
  18. CyberGus

    CyberGus Not Just a Member

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    While I might be confused by a sign limiting me to 25MPH on the highway, or giving me permission for 85MPH on a city side-street, I would not obey because it does not make sense. This is why I said Tesla should take signs as suggestions, as just one more data point to be considered along with maps, current conditions, other traffic, etc.

    I actually expect hacking and "malicious acts" to be one of the biggest problems facing FSD.


    [​IMG]
     
  19. VanillaAir_UK

    VanillaAir_UK Supporting Member

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    Why do you expect that? It's not really an issue now (not saying never) so no reason why its going to be a significant issue in the future. And most people have got the skills to cause problems with current traffic networks now than have the specialist skills needed to hack into an electronic system, but you don't see too much defaced traffic equipment, even though a bit of sticky tape is all that is needed. I know people who are working on traffic infrastructure security on such likes as CAV at the most influential level and security is taken very seriously. Yes, its going to happen, but the effects of it are unlikely to be huge - significant problems can be detected very quickly and worked around/shut down. How often do you hear of current traffic systems being hacked? The opportunities to do that has been around for decades. Dumb driving and accidents cause more chaos.
     
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  20. Battpower

    Battpower Supporting Member

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    That is common for me in UK, often near motorway junctions but definitely NOT only where there have been changes to road layout / speed limit any time in recent years.

    Exactly same experience. Regarding overhead signs or large flat side of trucks / buildings, I believe it is likely due to radar reflection.

    See this clip at the start point here: (at 0:28)



    then watch from a little earlier. The green dots on the far left of image look like they are related to the pedestrians in the centre of the image.

    Greentheonly also has posts of passing under bridges and seeing radar detection points cloud up on the road surface which could easily be read as an object in front of the car.
     

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