The case against the Pilot Sport 4S on 18" rims (retail vs OEM Tesla)

[Ejl80]

Except that they work better than all seasons when it's cold.

And summers work better than all seasons when it's warm.

All-seasons suck. In all seasons.




And every stop you make in it with all seasons will be significantly longer than with dedicated seasonal tires.

Edmunds tested all 3 types of tire, keeping the rest as similar as possible (same car, and same tire maker in same size- Michelin in fact!)

In wet (non-freezing) conditions, the all seasons finished a distant third in stopping distance from 60 mph-taking almost 60 feet longer to stop on all seasons than summer tires. (Winters still managed to beat the all seasons by almost 35 feet).

In snow conditions the all seasons again take nearly 60 feet longer to stop from 60mph than the proper (winter) tires for the occasion. The summers of course suck here- but it sounds like you virtually never drive in snow anyway so not much issue there either way.

Only in warm and dry do the all seasons manage a non-embarrassing performance, and even then they come in second best to the summer tires- with the AS tires taking "only" 11 extra feet to stop from 60.




Instead you're on all-seasons. Which are sub-optimal traction wise 100% of the time.... so there's that.

It's not really that much more expensive either, since the 2 pairs aren't both driven all the time it's not like you replace 2 sets just as fast as you'd otherwise replace 1... (unless you're comparing excellent performance summer tires to crap "touring" all seasons- which will indeed last twice as long but offer really garbage traction the whole time in comparison)




There's literally never a time all seasons are the best fit for any road condition.

They're often the best fit for "not doing a little extra work to knock 20-30% off stopping distance" I guess... but that's not an awesome goal.

Based on the OP's original post and replies, I'm going to guess initial cost, treadwear rating, sound dampening, and convenience are his priorities. Ours on the other hand are safety and the best performance for the conditions. I'm not sure any amount of facts are going to change the OP's mind.

 

[dhanson865]

It does the same things here. And yes, I've driven in snow, etc. We get almost the same amount of rain. So this whole thread is about you warning people that summer tires might not work for THEM because they don't work for you? And that tire OEMs make custom tires with the same names as other tires for different car manufacturers? This isn't common knowledge?

No this whole thread isn't about what doesn't work for me, this is just a side tangent that we got onto because you started a "you should use two sets of tires" subthread. See post #10. If you don't bring that into the thread I never bring up a response about how 2 sets don't work for me.

And no it isn't common knowledge outside car enthusiasts that retail and OEM tires are different even if they have the same brand and style name. Entire threads have been started by people that don't know that and rant about how bad OEM tire A is and you should never buy retail tire A because it has to be just as bad.

 

[Daniel in SD]

There's literally never a time all seasons are the best fit for any road condition.

If you live in California where you can drive from warm sunny weather up to snow you kind of need all-seasons. Not really practical to swap tires while on the road
I plan on getting the super sticky PS4S for around town driving and using the more efficient all-seasons for road trips.

 

[DR61]

If you live in California where you can drive from warm sunny weather up to snow you kind of need all-seasons.

Exactly - we live at elevation 700' and are 1 hr driving time to 7000'. One weekend in late August a few years ago we had a rain storm come in when I was driving up to 7K feet for a hike. It was snowing heavily near the trailhead. Fortunately I had just switched my autocross wheels/tires off my Mini and back on to all-season OEM tires. They worked OK with cautious driving.

 

[Knightshade]

If you live in California where you can drive from warm sunny weather up to snow you kind of need all-seasons. Not really practical to swap tires while on the road
I plan on getting the super sticky PS4S for around town driving and using the more efficient all-seasons for road trips.

You yourself said in the last 5 years you'd driven in snow a total of 3 times ever.

So suggesting now you may get "surprised" by snow doesn't seem a valid objection.

I also live someplace I can be at the beach or in the mountains with just a couple hours of driving either way- but it's not like I don't KNOW if I'm going up to snowy mountains in advance where I can swap my snow tires on (a second set of wheels does help with this a lot- since you can swap yourself quickly in a garage...there is some cost here- but winter wheels are pretty cheap to obtain- and bonus- you don't have to worry about your "nice" wheels getting ruined by winter weather and salty roads!)

This way the summers will offer me significantly better safety and performance most of the year... and the winters offer the same the rest of the year.


Absolutely it's a bit more cost and trouble than running all seasons. But 20-30% shorter braking distances virtually year-round, plus a lot better handling and performance all around, (and much better safety in both warm/wet and cold/wet driving over all seasons) seems well worth that.


Since you already plan to run 2 sets of tires anyway I'm kind of baffled you'd pick summers as one, but all-seasons as the other instead of winters.

Any conditions under which all-seasons aren't significantly worse than winter tires are conditions under which those all seasons are significantly worse than your summer tires.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Since you already plan to run 2 sets of tires anyway I'm kind of baffled you'd pick summers as one, but all-seasons as the other instead of winters.

As I said it can be warm and sunny in San Diego,CA and cold and snowy in Mammoth Lakes,CA at the same time. Not really great to drive in 70 degree weather on snow tires. Everything is a compromise.

You yourself said in the last 5 years you'd driven in snow a total of 3 times ever.

So suggesting now you may get "surprised" by snow doesn't seem a valid objection.

I think you're thinking of someone else. You definitely aren't going to be surprised by snow in San Diego. haha.

 

[efithian]

I have never seen all season tires. I have seen summer tires and winter tires. I believe the rest are properly labeled as NO-SEASON tires.

I have driven in a light snowstorm on summer tires. It was not fun. OTOH, due to laziness, one summer I kept the winter tires on. They did not wear out, and did not handle well.

My current vehicle is a Model 3P+ with the 20" Michelins. They are quiet, sticky, and comfortable. Winter is coming here in PA, and I will not drive below 35°F on summer tires. I have some 18" wheels on order from TSportsline, due in a few weeks. Tires will be all-weather Hakkas, assuming they become available. No foam in these tires. They may be a little noisier than the Michelins. Nokian Hakka WR G4. The Performance Plus configuration includes humongous calipers that will not fit in most 18" wheels.

Back in the day, I had a BMW 325i with studded Hakkas. Driving in an ice storm was unbelievable fun. Shards of ice spraying out behind me...

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I agree with efithian -- there is another option, the All-Weather tires. These are 3-Peak Mountain/Snow rated tires, but are also rated to drive in year-round conditions, including summer conditions.

The Nokian WR G4 tire is one, the Vredestein Quatrac 5 is another. The Michelin Cross-Climate is a 3rd, but is not available in the Tesla sizes. I have a set of the Nokians on my 3LR on Tesla 18" Aero wheels, and I have a set of the Vredesteins for the P3D+ to be mounted on the TSportline 18" wheels when they come in.

One of these tires would let you run two sets without worrying about having the winter set on during those days when it can get to 80F on dry pavement.

It still may not work for what you want, but it's another option.

 

[Orwell]

Thanks OP for the great information.

I found this thread after I had already purchased my 235/45/18 PS4S. Which I would have done again anyways, since they don't offer a "TESLA" version of the 18" PS4S.

My factory 20" Performance wheels with factory PS4S tires, TPMS and fully inflated to 45 PSI weighs just a hair under 55 lbs.

My new setup 18x8.5 +43 wheels, 235/45/18 PS4S tires, TPMS weighs 41 lbs full inflated.

 

[brianman]

I have never seen all season tires.

​

I agree with efithian -- there is another option, the All-Weather tires.

#confused

 

[Daniel in SD]

I agree with efithian -- there is another option, the All-Weather tires. These are 3-Peak Mountain/Snow rated tires, but are also rated to drive in year-round conditions, including summer conditions.

The Nokian WR G4 tire is one, the Vredestein Quatrac 5 is another. The Michelin Cross-Climate is a 3rd, but is not available in the Tesla sizes. I have a set of the Nokians on my 3LR on Tesla 18" Aero wheels, and I have a set of the Vredesteins for the P3D+ to be mounted on the TSportline 18" wheels when they come in.

One of these tires would let you run two sets without worrying about having the winter set on during those days when it can get to 80F on dry pavement.

It still may not work for what you want, but it's another option.

Very cool. These look like the best option for California winter tires.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

#confused

Lemme 'splain.

efithian says he doesn't use all-season tires, instead he runs two sets of tires -- one set is a summer tire, the other set are these all-weather tires that are good for winter conditions but can also handle the non-winter conditions.

This is a setup that addresses dhanson865's concern that he doesn't want to run true winter tires because there are times when he would have to drive on them in non-winter conditions. With a regular winter tire like the X-Ice or Hakkas, this can cause accelerated wear of the winter tire. This concern is alleviated with the all-weather tires.

I agreed with efithian that this is a setup that could be an option for dhanson. Indeed, it's the option I use, even though Texas sees very little snow and ice. My issue is that even though Texas doesn't see snow and ice, it does get cold, especially in the northern Texas cities like Dallas, which I travel to occasionally. It's not safe to run a summer tire below 45F, so you really do need something else for those cold temperatures other than the Pilot Sport 4S that's on the P3D+. All-seasons would actually work fine here, but I figure if I'm going to change tires anyway, I may as well have something that specifically has more capability in cold temperatures than just any generic all-season.

 

[brianman]

Lemme 'splain.

...

Got it. I somehow missed the distinction between "all-season" and "all-weather".

 

[dhanson865]

Got it. I somehow missed the distinction between "all-season" and "all-weather".

It's not a real distinction just someone's made up distinction. The tires he listed are all season tires.


https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=CrossClimate+

The CrossClimate+ is Michelin's Grand Touring All-Season tire developed for...

says it lasts longer than the energy saver A/S so it's a good fit for my next set of tires.

There is a movement to calling the new style "summer-bias all season" tires.

 

[dhanson865]

This is a setup that addresses dhanson865's concern that he doesn't want to run true winter tires because there are times when he would have to drive on them in non-winter conditions. With a regular winter tire like the X-Ice or Hakkas, this can cause accelerated wear of the winter tire. This concern is alleviated with the all-weather tires.

That's one end of the spectrum, the other end is that running summer tires in cold weather reduces traction and can damage tires.

If you somehow thought I was only concerned with one end of the temp spectrum you misread and should start over reading my prior posts.

The new summer bias all seasons would be what I'd run year round, just like I've been running all season tires year round all along. It's just some of these newer tires are better all seasons than past all season tires.

I have no interest in summer only tires and no interest in winter only tires.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

It's not a real distinction just someone's made up distinction. The tires he listed are all season tires.

The name "all-weather" made be a marketing term, but the performance gain is very real. The big distinction on these tires is that they have earned the 3-peak mountain/snowflake symbol, whereas all other "all-season" tires have not. The 3PMSF symbol is a regulated symbol -- a tire must exhibit 10% greater traction than the average all-season tire on packed snow to be eligible for the 3PMSF symbol. This is unlike the older "M+S" rating which was based on the tread geometry (and therefore nearly worthless).

A descriptive and accurate term for these tires might be "winter-biased all-seasons".

 

[SomeJoe7777]

That's one end of the spectrum, the other end is that running summer tires in cold weather reduces traction and can damage tires.

If you somehow thought I was only concerned with one end of the temp spectrum you misread and should start over reading my prior posts.

No, I did not "somehow" think that, and I do not need to re-read your posts. I read them and fully comprehended them the first time.

If you run 2 sets of tires, then by definition you will not subject the summer tires to cold weather. Both concerns are then alleviated.

The bottom line is that you want to run only one set of tires all year long. Perfectly fine. Get all-seasons of your choice and do that.

I fail to understand your hostility and condescension to every other poster in this thread who is trying to discuss and understand your situation, and potentially point out other options, even if not for you but for other posters who may read the thread.

Why did you even start this thread? Was it just so that you can argue with every response?

 

[dhanson865]

No, I did not "somehow" think that, and I do not need to re-read your posts. I read them and fully comprehended them the first time.

If you run 2 sets of tires, then by definition you will not subject the summer tires to cold weather. Both concerns are then alleviated.

The bottom line is that you want to run only one set of tires all year long. Perfectly fine. Get all-seasons of your choice and do that.

I fail to understand your hostility and condescension to every other poster in this thread who is trying to discuss and understand your situation, and potentially point out other options, even if not for you but for other posters who may read the thread.

Why did you even start this thread? Was it just so that you can argue with every response?

Lets start in reverse order

* Why did you even start this thread?

A: go back and read the first post. It has very little to do with all season tires. It wasn't until post #8 that seasonality was mentioned by me in any significant way.

* I fail to understand your hostility and condescension to every other poster in this thread who is trying to discuss and understand your situation, and potentially point out other options, even if not for you but for other posters who may read the thread. Was it just so that you can argue with every response?

That wasn't the original purpose of the thread but anyone who misrepresents my position forces me to either ignore that misrepresentation or to correct it. That has a snowball effect where someone like you who comes in later has a misconception of my situation and replies based on that misconception and I reply yet again to try and remove that confusion.

You have joined the others in suggesting I run 2 sets of tires. I have no desire to do that. From a financial and performance standpoint I'm fine with all season tires with or without 3 peak snow symbols. My only concern is that wet traction be reliable no matter the temperature. Summer tires don't do that. Winter tires don't do that.

It's oversimplifying it but this tally pretty much sums up how the tire options compare for me not seeing snow 99.9% of the time but often seeing sub 40F roads.

It's 42F at my house now, it was 80F a couple of days ago, it'll be mid 30s in a few days. I'll likely see upper 70s or low 80s several times between now and new years and likely see below freezing at some point as well. No matter if it rains or snows the odds are 99.9% that I'll be driving on wet roads not frozen roads. Just the way it is living this far south and in a metro area but also on the edge of a rain forest and seeing precipitation in abundance.





The new all seasons that others call Summer-bias and you prefer to call winter bias are slightly better for my use case and I'll likely switch. But I have no desire to run them along side a set of winter or summer tires in a 2 or 3 tire set seasonal rotation.

If you question the values that graphic is based on check out

2017 Auto Bild All Season Tyre Test - Tyre Reviews

and the video below (don't let the lead in fool you they discuss summer tires and all season tires thoroughly). His final recommendation is based on snow and ice capability but if you are capable of reading stopping distance test results you can make your own choices.

 

[ord3r]

If you live in California where you can drive from warm sunny weather up to snow you kind of need all-seasons. Not really practical to swap tires while on the road
I plan on getting the super sticky PS4S for around town driving and using the more efficient all-seasons for road trips.

I'd swap to my winter tires on steelies before heading up to big bear in my WRX. Was practical and fun, beats chains any day.

Swap would take me about 30 minutes in my garage after I got the hang of it. Took an hour the first time.

 

[zippy]

Although this thread has no shortage of points of view, I will add another.

I have the 3P+ with the factory 20in Michelin summer tires. It is a fantastic set up, and I want to keep it and use it the warm half of every year.

I live in the middle of the US, where in the cold half of the year it sometimes gets very cold, and stays cold for days or weeks on end. Yet it doesn't snow very often; and in the cold half of the year, there are many warm days. My impression from asking friends about winter tires is that they offer notably poor dry pavement performance, and accelerated wear on those winter days of 50 or 60 degrees, days which may inspire spirited driving.

Therefore, for the winter (~November to April) I plan to use the much-hated-here all season tires. I have ordered a set from TSportline, apparently they will arrive in the next couple of weeks, just in time. I've ordered them on 18in wheels, for a quick change out twice a year.

Keeping all that in mind, I'm sort of wondering if after the set of all season tires were is out I should look around for the right set of "all weather". I wonder if those can provide great snow/ice performance, while also tolerating a warm day in the cold half the year, without excessive wear or disappointing grip.