The case against the Pilot Sport 4S on 18" rims (retail vs OEM Tesla)

[Crashem]

I didn’t see this response to OP, but it might have been there (although this thread went off track quickly)

1) The treadwear on the 20” Pilot Sport 4S TO Tesla is wrong. It is 300 not 500. All Pilot Sport 4S tires are 300 (maybe 320 on some other sizes).
2) On 20” Pilot 4S, the only difference between TO Tesla and retail is the acoustic foam. TO Tesla tires have foam and add 1 pound per tire vs retail tire. There is some discussion of TO Tesla version having harder compounds and more efficiency, but I actually don’t think that has been determined as I have seen arguments both ways. However according to manufacturer ratings, only the weight and foam are shown differences
3) On 18/19” wheels, there is no TO Tesla versions of Pilot 4S. Don’t get mixed up with the 18” of TO Tesla Pilot Sport 4 tires which are a different tire.

In terms of the type of tires (summer, all season, winter), I will only say that summer tires should only be run in warmer weather.

 

[dhanson865]

I didn’t see this response to OP, but it might have been there (although this thread went off track quickly)

1) The treadwear on the 20” Pilot Sport 4S TO Tesla is wrong. It is 300 not 500. All Pilot Sport 4S tires are 300 (maybe 320 on some other sizes).
2) On 20” Pilot 4S, the only difference between TO Tesla and retail is the acoustic foam. TO Tesla tires have foam and add 1 pound per tire vs retail tire. There is some discussion of TO Tesla version having harder compounds and more efficiency, but I actually don’t think that has been determined as I have seen arguments both ways. However according to manufacturer ratings, only the weight and foam are shown differences
3) On 18/19” wheels, there is no TO Tesla versions of Pilot 4S. Don’t get mixed up with the 18” of TO Tesla Pilot Sport 4 tires which are a different tire.

Maybe you should read post #48 in this thread. The foam is NOT the only difference.

Good post, making some important points, but it's actually even simpler in a sense than this. The Tesla specific tire in 235/35-20 at 8.8 inches of tread width is WIDER THAN ANY Michelin PS4S 245/35-20 tire, and roughly as wide as an average among the three available 255/35-20s.

For those who need proof, here it is, you can dig it out on the Michelin specs page for the tire. This significantly wider tread isn't there for no good reason (come on guys, does Tesla do anything for no good reason??), and people naively assume that the only difference in the Tesla specific tire is the addition of acoustic foam. It's not. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the extra width is there to give extra braking and handling traction while keeping section width (and therefore rolling resistance) lower than the ostensibly larger 245 and 255 (but not wider tread) tires might allow. Although the 4S can't compete with super high compliance sidewall ultra low rolling resistance tires, it would be a mistake to assume that all the 4S tires are the same on this point. The 4S in the Telsa rolls over quite a bit if you track the car, suggesting a lot of sidewall compliance (perhaps a partial substrate for its excellent ride?). Is the 4 the perfect tire for the car? Not if you are tracking it, but if you are running it on the street, want the best balance possible between range, ride, and braking, handling and wet weather performance, there isn't a better choice, at least IMHO.

An additional consideration is that the 20 inch wheel/35 section width means 1) more vulnerability to impact damage for both wheel and tire; 2) poorer ride; 3) more unspung weight as the smaller sidewall weight savings are more than made up in extra rim weight; 3) somewhat better contact patch stability under load as you go from 45 to 40 to 35 series (but likely diminishing returns past 40); 4) extra cost for 35 series tires and larger wheels; 5) cooler aesthetics (very subjective of course) in bigger wheels and smaller sidewalls.

In sum, it's a lot of tradeoffs, and perhaps the sweet spot of reasonable performance, durability, and cost is the 19 inch wheel and the 40 series 235, or the 35 series 265/35-19 tire if max handling and tracking is the target.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Maybe you should read post #48 in this thread. The foam is NOT the only difference.

That's the same page that had the erroneous 500TW rating. This question will never be settled until someone looks at the tires side by side.
It just seem weird that they would make a custom mold for a single manufacturer.

 

[jyalpert]

That's the same page that had the erroneous 500TW rating. This question will never be settled until someone looks at the tires side by side.
It just seem weird that they would make a custom mold for a single manufacturer.

I used to do work for a tire manufacturer. If the car is sexy enough and has enough stature, and if you pay them more, they'll do some custom work/development. That's what Goodyear did with the Camaro SS and the Eagle F1 Supercar tire, for instance.

That said, I'm with you that the info on that web page is suspect, and I'd prefer to see a real world measured comparison on the tires.

 

[Crashem]

Maybe you should read post #48 in this thread. The foam is NOT the only difference.

I did see the difference in tread width (8.8 vs. 8.5) and tread depth (9/32 v. 9.5/32). However Michelin says these differences don’t make any or enough difference to change any ratings. Post#48 tries to infer that it must. But that is nothing but opinion and Michelin’s stated ratings say differently. It definitely doesn’t prove the OP’s original point which was largely based on incorrect info. That was my point.

What I can state for sure is that TO Tesla Pilot 4S have acoustic foam which should make road noise quieter. I can also say for sure is that TO Tesla Pilot 4S are 1 lb heavier. 1lb per wheel isn’t trivial when it is wheel weight and impacts driving experience in a way not captured by manufacturer ratings.

 

[dfwatt]

I did see the difference in tread width (8.8 vs. 8.5) and tread depth (9/32 v. 9.5/32). However Michelin says these differences don’t make any or enough difference to change any ratings. Post#48 tries to infer that it must. But that is nothing but opinion and Michelin’s stated ratings say differently. It definitely doesn’t prove the OP’s original point which was largely based on incorrect info. That was my point.

What I can state for sure is that TO Tesla Pilot 4S have acoustic foam which should make road noise quieter. I can also say for sure is that TO Tesla Pilot 4S are 1 lb heavier. 1lb per wheel isn’t trivial when it is wheel weight and impacts driving experience in a way not captured by manufacturer ratings.

When you quote somebody please don't misquote them or attribute nonsense to them to create a straw man that you can knock down. I never claimed that the changes to the Michelin 4S improved its treadwear. Not even sure how someone would get that from my posts. All I said was that the Tesla specific 4S tire is on the other hand wider then any 245/35 4S Tire, which is a neglected difference. People focus on the acoustic foam but the tread design and perhaps even the sidewall design are likely to be somewhat different. We have no idea what these things mean and no one has done a head-to-head skidpad or other real world performance test of the Tesla specific 235/35 against those made for other manufacturers. We have to assume Tesla knew what they were doing in getting this slightly re-engineered Pilot Sport 4S from Michelin. Is anyone going to claim that Tesla does stuff for no reason and they don't know what they're doing? Any other position or interpretation seems unsupported. As for treadwear, Michelin ratings on the Super Sport and therefore probably on this tire were pretty conservative.

As for your claim that the extra 1-pound attributable to the Wider tread and acoustic foam directly and significantly impacts Driving Experience and performance, what is your data? If you have no data other than a supposition, well that's all it is!

 

[Crashem]

When you quote somebody please don't misquote them or attribute nonsense to them to create a straw man that you can knock down. I never claimed that the changes to the Michelin 4S improved its treadwear. Not even sure how someone would get that from my posts. All I said was that the Tesla specific 4S tire is on the other hand wider then any 245/35 4S Tire, which is a neglected difference. People focus on the acoustic foam but the tread design and perhaps even the sidewall design are likely to be somewhat different. We have no idea what these things mean and no one has done a head-to-head skidpad or other real world performance test of the Tesla specific 235/35 against those made for other manufacturers. We have to assume Tesla knew what they were doing in getting this slightly re-engineered Pilot Sport 4S from Michelin. Is anyone going to claim that Tesla does stuff for no reason and they don't know what they're doing? Any other position or interpretation seems unsupported. As for treadwear, Michelin ratings on the Super Sport and therefore probably on this tire were pretty conservative.

As for your claim that the extra 1-pound attributable to the Wider tread and acoustic foam directly and significantly impacts Driving Experience and performance, what is your data? If you have no data other than a supposition, well that's all it is!

Dfwatt: You are misreading my comments. I referred to OP (original post), not you, when talking about using incorrect differences to argue against Pilot 4S. So, I’ll assume your attacks about me creating straw man to knock down were a result of your misread.

I did acknowledge your point about more tread width and less tread depth with Tesla OEM spec version. I did also point out you are trying to infer there must be meaningful differences with Tesla OEM spec tire because Tesla must have done it for a reason. OEM spec versions of tire only mean that the OEM has approved of that tire, no more or less. Michelin, not Tesla, designs and engineers the tire (lots of good reading on process with Porsche spec tires). If Tesla asked Michelin to tweak the tire, it is unclear exactly what they asked for. The only clear change Tesla asked for was for for reduced road noise given the acoustic foam and the rating change (ie acoustic foam rating). Other changes could or could not be only related to the addition of foam. But we do know that the changes didn’t make a big enough difference to require change in performance ratings for the tire.

As for your comment about wheel weight making a difference in driving, I assumed it is a commonly understood concept. A quick search on wheels and tires tuning will make it evident. Whether you and I would notice is a different thing.

OEM spec vs. non-OEM spec tires is an ongoing argument with no obvious conclusion. Some argue that they are better and some argue no difference and some argue they are actually worse. Take a look at the debate about Porsche spec tires as an example. When it comes to Tesla spec tires, the only definite difference is that they should be quieter than their non Tesla spec tire as it requires a manufacturer rating change.

 

[dfwatt]

Dfwatt: You are misreading my comments. I referred to OP (original post), not you, when talking about using incorrect differences to argue against Pilot 4S. So, I’ll assume your attacks about me creating straw man to knock down were a result of your misread.

I did acknowledge your point about more tread width and less tread depth with Tesla OEM spec version. I did also point out you are trying to infer there must be meaningful differences with Tesla OEM spec tire because Tesla must have done it for a reason. OEM spec versions of tire only mean that the OEM has approved of that tire, no more or less. Michelin, not Tesla, designs and engineers the tire (lots of good reading on process with Porsche spec tires). If Tesla asked Michelin to tweak the tire, it is unclear exactly what they asked for. The only clear change Tesla asked for was for for reduced road noise given the acoustic foam and the rating change (ie acoustic foam rating). Other changes could or could not be only related to the addition of foam. But we do know that the changes didn’t make a big enough difference to require change in performance ratings for the tire.

As for your comment about wheel weight making a difference in driving, I assumed it is a commonly understood concept. A quick search on wheels and tires tuning will make it evident. Whether you and I would notice is a different thing.

OEM spec vs. non-OEM spec tires is an ongoing argument with no obvious conclusion. Some argue that they are better and some argue no difference and some argue they are actually worse. Take a look at the debate about Porsche spec tires as an example. When it comes to Tesla spec tires, the only definite difference is that they should be quieter than their non Tesla spec tire as it requires a manufacturer rating change.

Fair enough on some of your clarifications about what you intended to challenge and not challenge.

Here's what we may still disagree on. While it's obvious that it's Michelin and not Tesla that does the tire redesign for OEM tweaks, it seems counterintuitive to say the least to assume that those tweaks are functionally trivial or non-significant- why would Tesla do that?. Obviously they were trying to get at road noise with the acoustic foam - that much seems self-evident.

What they were doing with the wider tread I think is less clear but here would be my analysis. 235/35 is generally thought of as too small a tire for a 4000 pound car. Tesla was probably trying to grab a little bit more traction out of the tire while not having its rolling resistance go up accordingly. It seems very reasonable to assume that they were trying to maximize performance without giving up range. The fact that the tire is slightly but significantly wider in tread but not in section width may be how they tried to hit those somewhat contradictory design targets. Another interesting property of the tire is that it seems to have significantly more vulnerability to chunking when tracked compared to the Super Sport - its antecedent design. What that's about is unclear but again perhaps they went to a softer Compound on the Outer Edge but of course I'm speculating here.

In any case the general consensus is that the Pilot Sport 4S is now the best all-around Street Tire. Not a tire for the track for sure, but a great choice on the street. It's unlikely we will see a tire truly excel at both of those applications. The point has been made before but it's worth emphasizing that in technological designs it's all a series of trade-offs. The truly brilliant design can minimize the compromises but you can't eliminate them.

 

[ElectricGhost]

If you open your own links both tires are AA with 300 tread wear. This makes the entire rest of this thread useless... this thread should be removed and replaced with a more accurate comparison. 500 vs 300 is a world of difference and falsely claiming 500 is just bad interneting.

 

[dhanson865]

 

[dhanson865]

So while I don't personally like the 18" Pilot Sport 4S it is a savings of 8.6 pounds per corner in unsprung mass and a savings of about $500 a corner should you have to replace a damaged wheel that has a 20" Pilot Sport 4S on it.

Depending on how many wheels got damaged and how much you sell the undamaged ones for your savings for switching will vary but you could get enough for 2 wheels+tires to pay for the 4 new ones when downsizing.

Of course you could do the 18" wheels with something other than the Pilot Sport 4S (most any tire in the graphic in the post above) and still be saving that weight and replacement wheel/tire cost.

As shown in the video the 18" accelerates faster, the 20" brakes faster. Other than braking the 18" wins on most other metrics.

 

[dhanson865]

Will it be too warm for winter tires until New Years? Will it cool off in Jan/Feb or will this be a hot winter all the way through?

Weather might be another case for the Pilot Sport 4S if you are in that blistering southwest.

NOAA Predicts Warmer Than Average Temperatures for the Entire U.S. Through December | The Weather Channel

 

[67King]

View attachment 458401

Will it be too warm for winter tires until New Years? Will it cool off in Jan/Feb or will this be a hot winter all the way through?

Weather might be another case for the Pilot Sport 4S if you are in that blistering southwest.

Do you actually change to winter tires? I don't bother, I use Summer all year long. Just doesn't get cold or snowy enough in Knoxville to me (although I have thought about getting some low rolling resistance tires for road trips to extend the range).

 

[holmgang]

The OEM tesla tire on the 20" rim is using this name but is a superior tire to the retail 18" tire of the same name.

20" Michelin PILOT SPORT 4S 235/35ZR20 9/32 tread UTQG 500 AA A (TO Tesla, Acoustic Tech)

18" Michelin PILOT SPORT 4S 235/45ZR18 9.5/32 tread UTQG 300 A A (Retail tire)

In the retail tire you don't get the acoustic foam, you get way worse treadwear, and a slightly lower traction rating.
...
Those are the 3 primary OEM/Retail tires that people talk about on the model 3. The OEM tires can come from the factory or be ordered after the fact. The retail tires can be purchased from the Service Center, the Tesla website, or other retailers.
...
If you get the 18" Pilot Sport 4S you aren't getting Tesla OEM specific tires and they will not be equal to claims about the superior performance of the 20" version.

1. those treadwear ratings are wrong - all should be in 300 range
2. treadwear is generally inverse to grip, so if the numbers were correct, the oem tires have lower grip and worse performance than retail
3. the utgg is a very simplistic rating of grip measured in 1 very specific condition. a tire that is generally gripper than another can have a lower rating because it is outside its temperature envelope -- see the fact that high performance requires some "heat" in them
4. oem-homologated tires can be bought at retail -- you are free to buy any N0-spec porsche tires, A0-spec audi tires, *-spec bmw tires, etc etc

 

[dhanson865]

Do you actually change to winter tires? I don't bother, I use Summer all year long. Just doesn't get cold or snowy enough in Knoxville to me (although I have thought about getting some low rolling resistance tires for road trips to extend the range).

I actually run all seasons year round. If I ran two sets here it'd be summer + all season.

 

[dfwatt]

I actually run all seasons year round. If I ran two sets here it'd be summer + all season.

That's our formula also. We use the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 3 plus when we need cold weather safety and performance and the rest of the year the Pilot Sport 4S. We're amazed at the 3 +.

 

[Knightshade]

That's our formula also. We use the Michelin Pilot Sport All Season 3 plus when we need cold weather safety and performance and the rest of the year the Pilot Sport 4S. We're amazed at the 3 +.

Curious on your thoughts of the 2 against each other?

I'm kinda right on the cusp where the 4S would be good for 99% of days (and maybe 95% of nights?) so it's a debate between just driving our other vehicle the few times it's not, or going with the A/S 3+ that'd be fine 100% of the time with our weather.

My previous car I went with the summers and didn't drive it the few days it'd be much below 40 (especially if at all wet) because the gap from the Michelin summers to any all season was large- but the A/S 3+ seems to test pretty damn close to the 4S...

 

[OCR1]

Bumping an old thread because I've seen the below chart posted a few times now and I'm curious about the Michelin Cross Climate+ vs the Pilot Sport 4S. We are in Southern California so except for a few trips to Mammoth each year we are in warm (above 40 degree) weather year round. But the Cross Climate gets such good all around scores that I'm not sure what benefit there would be in choosing the Pilot Sport 4s and preventing myself from driving in the mountains versus just going with the Cross Climates. I've never seen anyone on this forum claim to have purchased the Cross Climates on a Model 3. Is it a good choice for primarily warm weather with occasional trips to the mountains?

If I were to give up the mountain trips is the Pilot Sport 4S a better choice? The scores make them seem very close overall.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Bumping an old thread because I've seen the below chart posted a few times now and I'm curious about the Michelin Cross Climate+ vs the Pilot Sport 4S. We are in Southern California so except for a few trips to Mammoth each year we are in warm (above 40 degree) weather year round. But the Cross Climate gets such good all around scores that I'm not sure what benefit there would be in choosing the Pilot Sport 4s and preventing myself from driving in the mountains versus just going with the Cross Climates. I've never seen anyone on this forum claim to have purchased the Cross Climates on a Model 3. Is it a good choice for primarily warm weather with occasional trips to the mountains?

If I were to give up the mountain trips is the Pilot Sport 4S a better choice? The scores make them seem very close overall.

@AlanSubie4Life has both the Crossclimates and the PS4S. They're really not comparable tires, the PS4S is way stickier. Maybe he can borrow my VBOX and measure braking distance.
Mammoth is such an easy drive. If you want one tire and you prioritize summer performance you might want to consider the A/S 3+. Just drive very carefully!

 

[dfwatt]

Bumping an old thread because I've seen the below chart posted a few times now and I'm curious about the Michelin Cross Climate+ vs the Pilot Sport 4S. We are in Southern California so except for a few trips to Mammoth each year we are in warm (above 40 degree) weather year round. But the Cross Climate gets such good all around scores that I'm not sure what benefit there would be in choosing the Pilot Sport 4s and preventing myself from driving in the mountains versus just going with the Cross Climates. I've never seen anyone on this forum claim to have purchased the Cross Climates on a Model 3. Is it a good choice for primarily warm weather with occasional trips to the mountains?

If I were to give up the mountain trips is the Pilot Sport 4S a better choice? The scores make them seem very close overall.

Michelin Pilot Sport 4S is the best warm-weather street tire anybody's ever made and not by a little. By a lot. Don't drive it in snow ever. The similarities in scores between these two tires is misleading because those are really two very different tires. The cross climate is a great all-weather Tire. But on either a dry or a wet Road above 45 degrees, it would have its clock cleaned by the 4S. If you need a tire that can handle occasional light snow duty, take a look at the Pilot Sport All Season 3 +. It's the best handling and Performing Tire with some functionality in snow and winter conditions.