The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

[Raurele]

I told him to ‘buzz off’ for suggesting, of all the things, steering wheel weights. That is a safety hazard for the driver and others around him. My post got moved.

Yeah, so by the same standards, his much more offensive post should have been quarantined too.

But no.. the moderators here really relish their biases.

And just to add in 2 more cents... I honestly believe keeping constant torque AGAINST where the car is trying to go, risking disengaging autopilot if you hit a bump is more dangerous than a weight. Having to give it a “wiggle” to remind it you’re there is also just as risky. If you’re going 70 on a light curve on a freeway and you hit a minor pothole while applying torque, or doing the wiggle, you can EASILY knock it out of AP and continue straight into the barriers. It happened to my neighbor and he’s waiting 3 months to replace side panels unfortunately.

There are calculated risks in everything we do. Especially in our cars. The important part is calculating them and not becoming complacent.

You do you. I’m in this thread to point out why

The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla​

Is in the same line as “batteries blow up” fear mongering. Our cars are amazing. Easily changing the entire ecosystem of personal vehicles. Get angry all you want at my opinion.

 

[nvx1977]

Tesla wholeheartedly disagrees with you, otherwise steering wheel weights would be available for sale on their website.

Well I don't think it's clear cut what Tesla ACTUALLY thinks. Their initial approach to AP was to not be a nanny. It was media scrutiny and gov't pressure that made them increase the nag, use the cabin camera for monitoring, etc. But yes, publicly, they will not condone defeat devices of any kind.

 

[_Redshift_]

Well I don't think it's clear cut what Tesla ACTUALLY thinks. Their initial approach to AP was to not be a nanny. It was media scrutiny and gov't pressure that made them increase the nag, use the cabin camera for monitoring, etc. But yes, publicly, they will not condone defeat devices of any kind.

I have to say, I am flabbergasted at the level of ignorant of some of you.

It want ‘media scrutiny and good old “gubmint“ pressure’. It was a guy with his head decapitated in Florida.

Federal regulators investigating fatal Tesla Model 3 crash in Florida

The National Transportation Safety Board said it’s investigating Friday’s fatal accident in which the roof of a Tesla was sheared off in a collision with a commercial truck in Delray Beach, Fla.

www.latimes.com

Do you want to be that guy?

Having driven my EAP Model 3 for more than 3.5 years, I have not seen it behave _perfectly_ as some of you claim more than 3 times in a row.

Its the dubious claims of 100% perfection, thin skinned rudeness, and suggestions of how to defeat safety mechanisms rubs many of the more experienced Tesla owners the wrong way.

It doesn’t do Tesla any favors either! Those of you trying shut down the criticisms don’t seem to understand or care!

 

[Raurele]

I have to say, I am flabbergasted at the level of ignorant of some of you.

It want ‘media scrutiny and good old “gubmint“ pressure’. It was a guy with his head decapitated in Florida.

Federal regulators investigating fatal Tesla Model 3 crash in Florida

The National Transportation Safety Board said it’s investigating Friday’s fatal accident in which the roof of a Tesla was sheared off in a collision with a commercial truck in Delray Beach, Fla.

www.latimes.com

Do you want to be that guy?

Having driven my EAP Model 3 for more than 3.5 years, I have not seen it behave _perfectly_ as some of you claim more than 3 times in a row.

Its the dubious claims of 100% perfection, thin skinned rudeness, and suggestions of how to defeat safety mechanisms rubs many of the more experienced Tesla owners the wrong way.

It doesn’t do Tesla any favors either! Those of you trying shut down the criticisms don’t seem to understand or care!

You’re your experience has been shitty. Sorry. But I’m not exaggerating when I say that on my 150-200 miles of driving 5 days a week on highways, freeways, city streets, and windy roads, I MIGHT experience something negative or some form of braking that isn’t called for once or twice every 1000 miles. Here’s a map of where I drive constantly. I drive manually probably 10% of the time.

I don’t own a unicorn. There are plenty of happy people. They just don’t come here to shout to the world or tell regulators how happy they are.

 

[Charliek]

so to put some perspective on things , here's a different take (but i'll probably be branded a fan boy). since 2017 I have not complained about what the capabilities do ( that means you have a expectation , and I learned early on to not use Elon's description or what the sale guy says) I have looked to see what the capability does and what it Can become. I have even gamed the system in the early days to see what it would do ( being very vigilant and not in heavy traffic or even with family members) . for example on early AP/NOA I would let it take off ramps and see what it did with the off ramp ( thank you lateral G check!) , or how it would do a twisty road (results in 2018 not so good, more like a very hesitant teenager with one week behind the wheel) . but I didn't assume it would do it perfectly , ready to "pop it out" and take control. Now I am a system engineer so that is just me.

The issue is FSD and the beta can be obtained by folks just piling in their families into the car and thinking it is "set and forget." or having inflated expectations . like " it will drive around things" , or I don't need to watch it take a right into fast on coming traffic... I think the present situation of charging $12k and or the hefty subscription . and then having some one still wait to get through the safety score ( which it does retrain you a bit to be looking for safety issues) is a decent compromise to putting it in the hands of " enthusiasts" that will pay attention, note errors ( I do). and test outer edge cases and daily driving. for me personally I have learned some additional tips and tricks to game the system to essentially complete all my drives 100% in FDS Beta( I am not in California where the system is getting a ton of data on road, but we do have decently marked roads in Northern Virginia). thing like a little bit of acceleration when it gets hesitant, and use the AP stalk for notched deceleration, when it feels like it is going a bit too fast for a turn or a situation. The rest of the time I just let it take me " there" ( which does take some patience to see if will complete the maneuver, like it is a teenager) .

I get the sense that the improvements will be even more incremental ( like I LOVE that it does round about consistently now ) . for me it is Level 3. I call it my daily "science project" . Now if you all have greater expectations. this might not be for you . super cruise on super highways may be enough , stop and go TACC may be enough. or head to Arizona and hail a Waymo ( it works but you are not part of the process you are a consumer, well maybe an early adopter .. if FSD suddenly allowed full level 4, I'm not gonna take a nap or even sit in the back seat for quite a while , its a matter of expectation and understanding of the limitations.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

You -> i REALLY want the beta, please give it to me!!

FSD Beta -> This is a beta product it may do the worst thing at the worst time and you must pay close attention at all times

You -> Agreed, no problem, i'll be super safe, give me that beta!!

FSD Beta -> Acknowledged, here you go, be safe!

You -> I can't take a nap while driving?!?! WTF!!! this is totally worthless, i'm filing a report with the NTSB!!!

Tesla -> /facepalm

For me it was more like this

Me -> I really want the beta, give it to me now!!!

FSD Beta -> Demonstrate to us that you truly want it by allowing yourself to be tortured, and the torture device is the Safety Score

Me -> That sounds a bit twisted, but sure.

My inner soul -> Dude you are crushing me with this thing. It is completely nutty

My logical side -> I can beat this by gaming it, and I will prevail.

FSD Beta -> Okay, you passed the safety score and you are now granted FSD Beta

My true self -> I heard it kinda sucked, but what is this crap? Why would you show anyone this? What is wrong with you?

Me to FSD Beta -> Bug 1, Bug 2, Bug 3, etc

FSD Beta -> *crickets*

Me -> The least you could do is acknowledge me

FSD Beta -> *crickets*

Me -> Come on guys talk to me like a HUMAN

FSD Beta -> *crickets*

Me -> Oh, man there are so many bugs outside of the whole FSD Beta that maybe I outta focus my efforts there.

Me -> Starts to report issues to service

Service -> Just send them to this email and I'll forward them on.

Me -> Focuses efforts on this project and ignores the dumb FSD beta crap

 

[nvx1977]

I have to say, I am flabbergasted at the level of ignorant of some of you.

It want ‘media scrutiny and good old “gubmint“ pressure’. It was a guy with his head decapitated in Florida.

Federal regulators investigating fatal Tesla Model 3 crash in Florida

The National Transportation Safety Board said it’s investigating Friday’s fatal accident in which the roof of a Tesla was sheared off in a collision with a commercial truck in Delray Beach, Fla.

www.latimes.com

Do you want to be that guy?

Having driven my EAP Model 3 for more than 3.5 years, I have not seen it behave _perfectly_ as some of you claim more than 3 times in a row.

Its the dubious claims of 100% perfection, thin skinned rudeness, and suggestions of how to defeat safety mechanisms rubs many of the more experienced Tesla owners the wrong way.

It doesn’t do Tesla any favors either! Those of you trying shut down the criticisms don’t seem to understand or care!

You really need to tone things down. No need to call people ignorant.

I don't want to be Joshua Brown. When that accident occurred, I recall posting on TMC warning everyone to stay vigilant. I keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

Personally, I wish people were more responsible, and we can have fewer nannies in government. But I understand that some people cause us to not have nice things.

Not sure who you're directing your vitriol at. I am quite critical of FSD beta and have reported many issues to Tesla in the AP early days.

No one is shutting down criticisms. Maybe we're just trying to chill you out a bit.

 

[Raurele]

You really need to tone things down. No need to call people ignorant.

I don't want to be Joshua Brown. When that accident occurred, I recall posting on TMC warning everyone to stay vigilant. I keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

Personally, I wish people were more responsible, and we can have fewer nannies in government. But I understand that some people cause us to not have nice things.

Not sure who you're directing your vitriol at. I am quite critical of FSD beta and have reported many issues to Tesla in the AP early days.

No one is shutting down criticisms. Maybe we're just trying to chill you out a bit.

The vitriol is at me. He doesn’t like that I don’t agree with him

 

[Silicon Desert]

When you file your NTSB complaint, be sure to provide a screen shot of the FSD beta warning page that tells you that the car might do the worst thing at the worst time. Also be sure that they know that you signed up to be a volunteer software tester of an "early access beta" version of FSD software and that you were not running the normal production software that came with the car when you purchased FSD.

Yes, AND be sure to tell that that the car almost killed you the first time, yet you continued using it. And then it almost killed you a second time and you still continued to use it

 

[_Redshift_]

You really need to tone things down. No need to call people ignorant.

I don't want to be Joshua Brown. When that accident occurred, I recall posting on TMC warning everyone to stay vigilant. I keep my hands on the wheel at all times.

Personally, I wish people were more responsible, and we can have fewer nannies in government. But I understand that some people cause us to not have nice things.

Not sure who you're directing your vitriol at. I am quite critical of FSD beta and have reported many issues to Tesla in the AP early days.

No one is shutting down criticisms. Maybe we're just trying to chill you out a bit.

Sure, I will tone things down. However, frankly, your friend Raurele is the one exhibiting all the symptoms you want to attribute to me.

If you knew about Joshua Brown, why then the blaming of ‘media and govt’? Isn’t that disingenuous?

Tesla is no angel. From dubious claims about ‘autonomous’ driver assistance to rolling through stop signs. Fart noises over the external speaker. The leadership is pretty immature.

Nevermind that. Even supporters like Sandy Munro have recently commented that Tesla FSD is ‘crap’ and that there are better solutions.

Unless Tesla actually takes criticism seriously, that is, is they are listening AT ALL, they are likely to fall behind.

Despite all my criticisms of Tesla, I still like them and want them to succeed.

I will always have tremendous respect for Elon, despite his juvenile shortcomings.

 

[Jblangi]

Missing an exit implies using NOA, not FSD. Methinks that someone did not check their Autopilot settings after installing the latest software.

I think my setting are fine for FSD to exit highway at the designated exit in navigation. Any other suggestions?

 

[Jblangi]

But it probably rerouted and if you just let it do it’s thing, you would have gotten to your destination. That’s a “you” problem.

It’s a BETA

There are two exits for my destination...FSD missed both...next exit 5 miles off course. Don't think this is a functional beta FSD.

 

[Raurele]

There are two exits for my destination...FSD missed both...next exit 5 miles off course. Don't think this is a functional beta FSD.

the beta doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with highways or freeways. That’s NoA. Different stack.

 

[Knightshade]

Sure, I will tone things down. However, frankly, your friend Raurele is the one exhibiting all the symptoms you want to attribute to me.

If you knew about Joshua Brown, why then the blaming of ‘media and govt’? Isn’t that disingenuous?

Joshua Brown died of being an inattentive idiot using a system someplace it was explicitly not intended to be used.

Which is also what the NTSB concluded in the end.

Nevermind that. Even supporters like Sandy Munro have recently commented that Tesla FSD is ‘crap’ and that there are better solutions.

Sandys comments on that are frankly embarrassing and show why he needs to stick to topics he actually knows anything about.

He insisted that FLIR was the solution ahead of everything else, and to prove it cited the fact it was used to guide bombs to targets.

Unless Tesla actually takes criticism seriously, that is, is they are listening AT ALL, they are likely to fall behind.

Behind whom?

When Sandy, since you seem to like his work, tested Fords system he remarked how garbage it was compared to Teslas.

When CR tested everyone's available at the time, Tesla scored better than everyone in actual capabilities and performance, with only the driver monitoring stuff being criticized... (and Tesla has since turned on the camera to address that)

 

[_Redshift_]

The vitriol is at me. He doesn’t like that I don’t agree with him

Oh really? I am not using any expletives like ‘piss off’. That the moderator decided to go easy on you, says more about the moderator than me. Who is using vitriol here?

I pointed out the flaw in the argument that ‘it’s the media and the govt that’s at fault’ and you guys start flying off the handle!

 

[Knightshade]

I pointed out the flaw in the argument that ‘it’s the media and the govt that’s at fault’ and you guys start flying off the handle!

I mean- it is at fault though... so what flaw specifically?

The example you cited was an idiot who refused to pay attention while driving, or even use the system properly, and died as a result- there was then a huge media uproar, and here we are.

 

[Jblangi]

the beta doesn’t have ANYTHING to do with highways or freeways. That’s NoA. Different stack.

Are you saying that the beta FSD does not function when you are navigating on highways?. Only NoA is functional on highways.
In past I have set destinations that my Y's navigation determined required highway driving and when I engage FSD it has taken me from local street to highway on-ramp, then onto highway, then necessary miles to destination exit and FSD exits the highway using the exit off ramp ALL without out my intervention.

Until yesterday when it passed the exit ramps. So what are you talking about?

 

[Jblangi]

Just thought I’d leave this here. This forums gotten disgusting with complaints, accusations, and just plain hate. Wish the admins would clean it up and get it back to the point.

ENTHUSIASTS is the key word. The amount of people here with over 1000 comments that have not one good word to say about Tesla as a company, the car, or anything Elon related, is gross.

No one has a good thing to say...doesn't my spending 64,000 buying a Y, including the 10,800 on FSD function, beta testing the system without any compensation for the time put in, not to say the stress on correcting the error FSD commits...AND never a hint of appreciation from TSLA. I have shown plenty of GOOD faith in TSLA but my experience now leaves me feeling deceived, used and not appreciated. I want truly want FSD to succeed but what I am experiencing is disappointing to say the least.

 

[_Redshift_]

You’re your experience has been shitty. Sorry. But I’m not exaggerating when I say that on my 150-200 miles of driving 5 days a week on highways, freeways, city streets, and windy roads, I MIGHT experience something negative or some form of braking that isn’t called for once or twice every 1000 miles. Here’s a map of where I drive constantly. I drive manually probably 10% of the time.

I don’t own a unicorn. There are plenty of happy people. They just don’t come here to shout to the world or tell regulators how happy they are.

You don’t own a unicorn? Then why do you contradict yourself in your signature!?

 

[Raurele]

we

Are you saying that the beta FSD does not function when you are navigating on highways?. Only NoA is functional on highways.
In past I have set destinations that my Y's navigation determined required highway driving and when I engage FSD it has taken me from local street to highway on-ramp, then onto highway, then necessary miles to destination exit and FSD exits the highway using the exit off ramp ALL without out my intervention.

Until yesterday when it passed the exit ramps. So what are you talking about?

NoA will do onramps, off-ramps, freeway/highway changes, but as soon as you hit city streets with lights, it will kick into the Beta stack. some highways are an exception because they have lights, but your complaint is NoA that comes with paying for FSD. completely different code than the beta.

the long talked about "V11" being "Single Stack" is about that. current version is 10.11.2 and there are 2 separate code bases that switch back and forth. I dont have beta, but my car runs the same code as you on freeways.