The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

[2101Guy]

Ive noticed that "toxic" is currently the "in" thing to say by many californians these days. Just toss "toxic" into the statement and its supposed to mean...something. lol

Who is it, by the way, that comes up with the random sayings and phrases that people copy? "Lean in", "toxic masculinity", etc?
Does someone in the Bay Area just randomly come up with these sayings, and the rest of cali just follows along? (in between their cars getting broken into and stores being mass robbed due to no repercussions).

 

[Supcom]

Video please so we can judge for ourselves.

Hardly necessary. I've had FSD beta brake hard because another car was turning into the lane just to the right of my car. This has happened many times, and though I have not had the car try to execute an evasive maneuver, it would not surprise me if it did. It's obvious that the car still needs work on predicting the paths of other vehicles. I'll be sure to keep watch for this sort of maneuver!

A similar issue exists when a car ahead slows down and turns right into a shopping center. FSD beta always overreacts and slows the car down much more than necessary - almost to a stop, even though there is a large gap between my car and the one turning off the street. Once again, this appears to be a prediction problem where FSD beta acts like it thinks the car ahead is stopping in the lane instead of departing it.

 

[Yelobird]

The more I read posts and reply’s on this forum, that’s supposed to be about the most futuristic and forward thinking car on the market, the more shocked and worried I get about the future.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Everyone is selfishly complaining that things should be changed because they themselves don’t like something, pretending and using the excuse that it’s better for everyone.

People threatening to go to regulators because they don’t like something. That’s basically blackmail and extortion. A bunch of pouting and whining but grown adults. Usually on the older end of things which is even more pathetic. Tattling to daddy government because they don’t like something.

Reality check: your individual opinion means nothing to big companies. Especially a company that is thinking 10+ years in the future. You can either support them by buying their products, or buy something else. Instead of talking crap about things you don’t like, support companies you do like. It’s toxic and disgusting what’s happening.

It’s a shame that someone in their 30s has to say it to people older than them, but grow the f*ck up. Be a positive change. Have some joy and positivity. Some optimism.

Wow well said! People always want to run to regulators Until they become regulated and progress stops. Be part of the solution as they say…

 

[aronth5]

Has a feature Tesla released as beta, ever graduated to be non-beta?

Really good question. I would label my early VIN (8xxx) Model 3 as "beta" since it didn't have 80% of what everyone now gets as standard software. Take a look at your settings today and cut by 80%. That was an early Model 3. Not really the same I realize as FSDbeta but one of the reasons I give them some slack.

 

[DrDabbles]

Can't you just tap the red precondition notice at the top of the navigation directions?

That's a good question, and I don't know the answer. Pretty bad UX if that's the case, since there's no note I see in the manual, nor any indication in the UI about it. Maybe I'll try next time I drive to a SC.

It’s just a language that’s being used to tell people that it’s constantly being improved.

No it isn't. It's language to indicate that development isn't complete and that the product shouldn't be relied on. FSD certainly hasn't been "improving" that's for sure.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.

lmfao Tell you what. I've received actual death threats from Tesla "fans". The fact you see people holding a company accountable for what their CEO claims versus reality as a negative puts in so far outside the norm that it's worrying that you're comfortable typing these words. Remember, Elon has called it "superhuman" for years now, said the problem was "solved" in 2015, and promised driverless coast-to-coast autonomous operation in 2018. None of that has happened, but he continues to misrepresent the system's capabilities to this day. That's fraud, dude. You can try to dress it up any way you want, but that's fraud.

 

[sananpx]

The worst thing is that they took people’s money, using it to their benefit and giving the product to selective people , and then treat those selected like sh***. Rather than making provocative statements and tweets. He should or someone else in his team, I am sure he will not let anyone else in the limelight, send a tweet after a release to give accurate picture rather a tweet with false promise before release, like 10.12 this Friday, 3 weeks ago.

 

[cwerdna]

I've received actual death threats from Tesla "fans". The fact you see people holding a company accountable for what their CEO claims versus reality as a negative puts in so far outside the norm that it's worrying that you're comfortable typing these words.

That's crazy. This is why I've stepped away from a lot of discussion and reading here. I've sometimes gone on hiatus for months as it's simply not worth it to engage. I have day job that is super important and other personal things that take priority instead of being sucked into discussions by toxic people and fanboys.

Those "fans" making threats are probably the same type of people as the "MuskBros" that What It’s Like When Elon Musk’s Twitter Mob Comes After You refers to. OMG!

 

[Ruffles]

When I posted this I knew it would illicit a lot of responses, and I understand them all, and agree with many aspects of the dislikes. But when the car crosses two sets of double yellow lines into head-on oncoming traffic at 60mph in order to "avoid the merge" of another car beside me that is not merging , which mine does now on 10.10.2, there is a potentially catastrophic problem. Even the production FSD I have had for three years never did anything as dangerous as this.

I am still driving 10.10.2 every drive, and yesterday right after posting this and thinking I was too harsh, it did it again.

I have not filed any complaint.

I've had something similar but my reaction was to simply say wow car, you screwed up. That's a new regression. Because I'm paying attention at all times and always holding the wheel, I caught it IMMEDIATLY and even though it was a stupid move, there was zero risk of killing me. I calmly hit the record button to capture it for the FSD team. Then, I thought about the situation and tried to see if I could reproduce it. I added that location to my list of places I check when I get a new build of FSD. I thought again that we have a long ways to go but then smiled because I'm in awe at what we currently have - especially when I remember we are doing this with cameras only. This is exactly why I signed up to test FSD.

 

[drtimhill]

Ive noticed that "toxic" is currently the "in" thing to say by many californians these days. Just toss "toxic" into the statement and its supposed to mean...something. lol

Who is it, by the way, that comes up with the random sayings and phrases that people copy? "Lean in", "toxic masculinity", etc?
Does someone in the Bay Area just randomly come up with these sayings, and the rest of cali just follows along? (in between their cars getting broken into and stores being mass robbed due to no repercussions).

Well, no stereotyping here then!

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Has a feature Tesla released as beta, ever graduated to be non-beta?

Tesla features graduate down, and not up.

Anything that works correctly is examined for ways to break it.

People are happy with autowipers, and the sensor is a few dollars? Obviously we can kill that by doing it ourselves in our Deep Rain Sense Neural Network.

The UI is too useful you say? Well how about Hide the button V11?

Preconditioning 30 minutes before Supercharging? That makes too much sense, lets have it precondition during the entire drive. Customers will love that.

Rolling Stops? Oh, geesh that's just too useful. Lets tells everyone we do that so the NHTSA forces us to turn it off.

 

[vamike]

The more I read posts and reply’s on this forum, that’s supposed to be about the most futuristic and forward thinking car on the market, the more shocked and worried I get about the future.

You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. Everyone is selfishly complaining that things should be changed because they themselves don’t like something, pretending and using the excuse that it’s better for everyone.

People threatening to go to regulators because they don’t like something. That’s basically blackmail and extortion. A bunch of pouting and whining but grown adults. Usually on the older end of things which is even more pathetic. Tattling to daddy government because they don’t like something.

Reality check: your individual opinion means nothing to big companies. Especially a company that is thinking 10+ years in the future. You can either support them by buying their products, or buy something else. Instead of talking crap about things you don’t like, support companies you do like. It’s toxic and disgusting what’s happening.

It’s a shame that someone in their 30s has to say it to people older than them, but grow the f*ck up. Be a positive change. Have some joy and positivity. Some optimism.

Hang in there... It's a small but vocal group of naysayers on here and you can't take them all seriously (like, seriously, if this "catastrophe" of an FSD-enabled car tried to "kill you twice", would you really keep using it?) Putting half a dozen usual suspects on ignore makes daily reading more enjoyable, unfortunately there's no way around the 1:10 ratio of insightful content vs. off-topic debates, recycled concerns, repeated grieveness, and pi$$ing contests.

And before I'm labeled a fanboy (which many on this site are quick to do if you aren't also negative), I'm far from it. Yes, I love my Tesla, but FSD itself, the safety score, the lack of FSD portability, the constant delays, the Elon hyperbole, etc., all frustrate me too, I just deal with it and accept it. What frustrates me even more is seeing the same TMC posters repeatedly air their grievances and polute many threads with the same negativity and complaints

 

[2101Guy]

The worst thing is that they took people’s money, using it to their benefit and giving the product to selective people , and then treat those selected like sh***. Rather than making provocative statements and tweets. He should or someone else in his team, I am sure he will not let anyone else in the limelight, send a tweet after a release to give accurate picture rather a tweet with false promise before release, like 10.12 this Friday, 3 weeks ago.

One of the fanboys (I think its EV NOW or EVNOW) swears that Tesla isnt benefitting financially from money paid for FSD. Some sort of accounting mumbo jumbo he regurgitated. Alls I know is..Tesla has received MILLIONS of dollars in FSD payments.

And yet, cars still go up onto curbs in smartsummon mode and FSD is nowhere REMOTELY near "NYC to LA with no human intervention by 2019"(c)ELon

 

[Raurele]

I've had something similar but my reaction was to simply say wow car, you screwed up. That's a new regression. Because I'm paying attention at all times and always holding the wheel, I caught it IMMEDIATLY and even though it was a stupid move, there was zero risk of killing me. I calmly hit the record button to capture it for the FSD team. Then, I thought about the situation and tried to see if I could reproduce it. I added that location to my list of places I check when I get a new build of FSD. I thought again that we have a long ways to go but then smiled because I'm in awe at what we currently have - especially when I remember we are doing this with cameras only. This is exactly why I signed up to test FSD.

I wish people understood that. Good for you. Handled perfectly.

 

[Raurele]

Hang in there... It's a small but vocal group of naysayers on here and you can't take them all seriously (like, seriously, if this "catastrophe" of an FSD-enabled car tried to "kill you twice", would you really keep using it?) Putting half a dozen usual suspects on ignore makes daily reading more enjoyable, unfortunately there's no way around the 1:10 ratio of insightful content vs. off-topic debates, recycled concerns, repeated grieveness, and pi$$ing contests.

And before I'm labeled a fanboy (which many on this site are quick to do if you aren't also negative), I'm far from it. Yes, I love my Tesla, but FSD itself, the safety score, the lack of FSD portability, the constant delays, the Elon hyperbole, etc., all frustrate me too, I just deal with it and accept it. What frustrates me even more is seeing the same TMC posters repeatedly air their grievances and polute many threads with the same negativity and complaints

So we are on the same page. This has become an echo chamber of negativity. We are ALL aware that things aren’t perfect. But saying there is no progress, and we should report things, is ignorant and negative. I’d love to see more positive opinions here. Unfortunately, there’s 10x more negative people here because happy people rarely feel the need to voice their opinion. So all people read when they research teslas is anger and blame.

 

[DrDabbles]

Or you could just think that he's frustrated and has, like so many people in a similar situation, gone way too far into the opposite extreme. There are, of course, some people who are over-enthusiastic and are apologists, just as are there are others who jump on every issue about Tesla as proof that the company and their products are the worst on the planet. Neither extreme is particularly rational, or useful.

It's not really an extreme to say that FSD is dangerous and should not be on public roads while we're seeing footage from every single release of the system showing that it doesn't even get its base functionality correct.

Remember, Elon said the "prime directive" of autopilot is "do not crash". Well. We've seen it crash multiple times into multiple objects, seen it charge toward pedestrians and cyclists, seen it veer into oncoming traffic, and so on. So if the "prime directive" fails that often and that badly, why is it being tested on the unsuspecting public? Why is every single other company using professional drivers to annotate and curate interventions while Tesla is just letting anybody in the US with $12k in their pocket engage a broken system?

When FSD injures someone, it will be too late. The bell can not be unrung, and there will be a very serious crackdown on Tesla specifically for their behavior. Those of us that have been in this for a long time have tried very hard to get everybody, including Elon, to take that seriously. But here we are, this many years later, absolutely no closer to autonomous driving, still having this discussion. With 11 confirmed autopilot fatalities, and new revelations that Elon personally freaked out on NTSB because they didn't stroke his ego properly initially. That's the person you're hitching your wagon to here. That's the level of irresponsible you're tolerating. He tells you that it's "superhuman", refuses to act like any of the dozens of other companies in this space, and that's supposed to be a good thing?

Frankly, OP's post is mild. I've filed multiple bug reports on FSD's behaviors that show a clear pattern of no test cases actually existing within the release or development teams, and it's complete silence from them. Serious, safety related issues, and they have no desire to even acknowledge the issue. So what should I do? I've found a situation where FSD will disengage, the car will attempt to accelerate to 70 MPH on an off ramp, and Tesla isn't doing anything about it. Should I wait for a fatality or use the government agency's reporting function so they can look into it and engage their process?

 

[James F2]

I live in Canada and just got the FSD update this morning. I went for a drive this evening and came back completely and utterly disgusted. Angry really. There is no way this is anywhere near ready for public use. It can’t do the simplest of driving tasks with error. It’s just awful. Dangerous and awful. I wish I could get my money back.

 

[Ramphex]

I live in Canada and just got the FSD update this morning. I went for a drive this evening and came back completely and utterly disgusted. Angry really. There is no way this is anywhere near ready for public use. It can’t do the simplest of driving tasks with error. It’s just awful. Dangerous and awful. I wish I could get my money back.

Welcome to the club. Please don the flamesuit for when the overly positive hipsters roll in to bash you for being a negative Nancy lol

 

[James F2]

Welcome to the club. Please don the flamesuit for when the overly positive hipsters roll in to bash you for being a negative Nancy lol

That’s fine, when something is true, it’s true. I put my money where my mouth is, and earned a right to an opinion. What I experienced tonight was garbage. I love the the car and use regular AP all the time. But FSD as it exists right now is worthless. Please, this is a PSA - save your money until FSD is finished and proven. Unfortunately, I feel like my car is probably going to be ready to be replaced before that happens. It doesn’t make me happy to say this. Experiencing it has TOTALLY changed my opinion.

 

[Knightshade]

I live in Canada and just got the FSD update this morning. I went for a drive this evening and came back completely and utterly disgusted. Angry really. There is no way this is anywhere near ready for public use.

Right.

That's why it's not a widespread public release, but instead a limited early access beta program.

Were you unclear on that previously?

Because you were told that when you requested the beta in the first place.

Then told that in even more detail on the screen you're required to agree you read and understood when you activate the beta.


So the fact you appear to be finding this out NOW is concerning.

It's not really an extreme to say that FSD is dangerous and should not be on public roads

It really is extreme to say that though given there's been 0 people killed, or even injured, despite well over a year of testing in a program with tens of thousands of testers.

In fact there's yet to be any evidence of even minor property damage apart from the occasional curbed rim or the one got who hit the bendable pole at 5 mph.

Doesn't seem especially dangerous at all given the evidence.

Why is every single other company using professional drivers to annotate and curate interventions

Because those companies are testing L3 or higher systems where the human is not driving the vehicle- the system is.

Tesla is testing an L2 system. Which is a driver assist, in which the human is still actively, full time, performing parts of the driving task.


That's also the reason Tesla doesn't need a permit to test this system in California, but Waymo DOES need one to test their L4 system.


It's a pretty fundamental difference, and if you don't understand it you probably want to go read SAE J3016 a few times until you do.

Some sort of accounting mumbo jumbo he regurgitated. Alls I know is..Tesla has received MILLIONS of dollars in FSD payments.

You've had several people explain it to you.

It's not especially complex a concept.

Nobody, including Tesla, can recognize revenue from something they took money for, but haven't delivered.

Which is why a significant percentage of FSD money sits as a liability on Teslas books.

It's something they owe

Only after they deliver a public, feature complete, version does that liability change into revenue.

 

[James F2]

Right.

That's why it's not a widespread public release, but instead a limited early access beta program.

Were you unclear on that previously?

Because you were told that when you requested the beta in the first place.

Then told that in even more detail on the screen you're required to agree you read and understood when you activate the beta.


So the fact you appear to be finding this out NOW is concerning.





It really is extreme to say that though given there's been 0 people killed, or even injured, despite well over a year of testing in a program with tens of thousands of testers.



Because those companies are testing L3 or higher systems where the human is not driving the vehicle- the system is.

Tesla is testing an L2 system. Which is a driver assist, in which the human is still actively, full time, performing parts of the driving task.


That's also the reason Tesla doesn't need a permit to test this system in California, but Waymo DOES need one to test their L4 system.


It's a pretty fundamental difference, and if you don't understand it you probably want to go read SAE J3016 a few times until you do.





You've had several people explain it to you.

It's not especially complex a concept.

Nobody, including Tesla, can recognize revenue from something they took money for, but haven't delivered.

Which is why a significant percentage of FSD money sits as a liability on Teslas books.

It's something they owe

Only after they deliver a public, feature complete, version does that liability change into revenue.