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  • The final cut of TMC Podcast #27 is available now with topics time-stamped. We discussed: Consolidation in LiDAR manufacturers; Volvo EX90 shipping with LiDAR; FSD Beta Full Release in N.A.; FSD detecting autopilot cheats, Gwen Shotwell directly overseeing SpaceX Starship; and more. You can watch it now on YouTube. We should have it published to podcast networks shortly.

The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
16,771
34,151
NC
Show me a bill of sale or contract that includes level 4 in its description,

Sure.

Read the first paragraph.

It is describing a system that is at minimum Level 4 with a broad ODD (because below L4 the person in the drivers seat MUST do things- only L4 and above do they need do nothing as promised here)

You could argue it might describe an L5 system instead- that's up for debate.

But you can not argue it's promising anything less than L4. That's not debatable without ignoring the actual words in the promise.

FSD.jpg



with a date it will be completed by


I'll take "You making up nonsense things I never said" for $1000 Alex!

I said they promised L4 (or 5) to pre 3/19 buyers. Because they did.

I never made any claims about delivery dates- that's just you trying to move goalposts.


. You’re pulling that out of your ass.

I agree ONE of us is :)
 

DrDabbles

Active Member
Jul 28, 2017
1,337
1,903
NH, US
I didn't agree to my neighbor's kid racing his car down the street. Nor did I agree to all the drivers willfully running red lights, tailgating, driving while texting, etc.

And that's why those things are illegal. So. For your thought to be complete, we would have to make FSD testing without trained, professional drivers illegal as well. Stopping your line of thinking half way was convenient for you, but failed to actually make the point you wanted.

Nope, as others noted, its being tested with the beta tester drivers

lmao Unskilled, untrained people in the car is not testing. There's zero part of the FSD program that is testing. It's marketing. But like I said, the good thing is more and more users receive the beta, realize Elon lied about its capabilities, and they stop using it.
 
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The problem with so many people is they try to make a blanket "it works awesome" or "it sucks and tried to kill me" statements. Its way to complex for that. In many scenarios, it works perfectly and is much safer than humans. In others it fails miserably and will crash unless the driver intervenes. I've been testing since 10.2. The number of fails has gotten less but it still has a ways to go. That said, it provides value to me RIGHT NOW for the many scenarios where it works great.

In my experience, it basically drives perfectly when it can stay on the same road. It can wind through turns, go through stop lights and stop signs and merge and pass other cars just fine. It can do this for miles in all types of traffic, day or night and usually in the rain. It can do this on highways or back country roads or 2 lane surface streets. When it has to exit from that road to the right or left, it starts to struggle - usually because it is WAY to cautious and slows so much it will annoy people. If its a simple exit with a gradual curve to the next road with it's own dedicated merge lane, great. FSD will nail it. If its an unprotected left turn through a median across 3 lanes of traffic at rush hour, it doesn't stand a chance. Obviously, there is an entire spectrum of scenarios between these two extremes and I've learned where I think it will be successful and where I should take over. 99% of my disengagements are because of this. If no one is around, I'll let it do its thing and it will usually get it eventually. Only about 1% of the time do I disengage because I think it may crash or do something really bad and even in those cases, I've only had 1 time when I think it would have caused serious damage. Usually, it's because I'm afraid it will hit a curb and mess up my expensive rims ;).

I don't have 0 disengagement drives but its not because the car can't move me from point A to B safely. Its because it won't do it the way I would do it yet. With each new version, I'm seeing progress in the right direction.
 
Show me a bill of sale or contract that includes level 4 in its description, with a date it will be completed by. You’re pulling that out of your ass.

You might be surprised, but Tesla does not issue any kind of contract for FSD purchase. They do not show any description, terms or conditions before you buy. Only information about what you get for the money is their (ever changing) onlinr marketing materials and the public statements made by their CEO. After the purchase, you will be emailed an "invoice" with one line item "Full Self-Driving Capability". There are no description, terms or conditions.

This leaves the "contract" open to interpretation by the courts.
 

Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
16,771
34,151
NC
They do not show any description, terms or conditions before you buy.


This is of course grossly false.

I posted the description of the pre 3/19 FSD shown during the purchase just 4 posts above yours.

When purchasing today it's even more specific about what exactly you get today.

fsd12k.png


And one can also click "feature details" shown there to get more detailed descriptions of each of the currently available features.
 
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nvx1977

Unknown Member
Nov 25, 2017
2,965
6,954
NH, MA
lmao Unskilled, untrained people in the car is not testing. There's zero part of the FSD program that is testing. It's marketing. But like I said, the good thing is more and more users receive the beta, realize Elon lied about its capabilities, and they stop using it.

But I don't consider myself unskilled or untrained. I know the rules of the road, so when the car tries to violate those rules, I prevent it from happening. The only time the car is adding danger to others (where others would be concerned) is if I'm not doing my job - paying attention. But that could be said for someone driving manually as well.

We do regulate driving by requiring a driver's license (whether some people deserve one or not is a separate issue). Having a driver's license represents that you've learned the rules of the road. FSD is not some feature that I turn on and then everyone on the road is at the mercy of the car.

Not saying FSD Beta is unsafe but I always find it funny when people (who seem to be in favor of unregulated testing on public roads) equate It to illegal activities.
People do things that reduce their alertness (texting while driving, drinking while driving, etc), and that creates a safety hazard for everyone on the road. Yes, they are illegal. Not paying attention while driving SHOULD be illegal. Therefore letting FSD do its thing without paying attention should also be illegal. But paying attention and correcting FSD mistakes is being responsible, and I fundamentally disagree that regulation beyond the driver's license is required for L2 systems "testing."
 
You might be surprised, but Tesla does not issue any kind of contract for FSD purchase. They do not show any description, terms or conditions before you buy. Only information about what you get for the money is their (ever changing) onlinr marketing materials and the public statements made by their CEO. After the purchase, you will be emailed an "invoice" with one line item "Full Self-Driving Capability". There are no description, terms or conditions.

This leaves the "contract" open to interpretation by the courts.
Exactly! Which is why any claims of lawsuits due to “promises” are complete bullshit
 
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Supcom

Active Member
Oct 3, 2021
1,016
1,737
Texas
And that's why those things are illegal. So. For your thought to be complete, we would have to make FSD testing without trained, professional drivers illegal as well. Stopping your line of thinking half way was convenient for you, but failed to actually make the point you wanted.
I think I made my point quite clearly.

Thank you for your response.
 

drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
3,404
4,409
Seattle
lmao Unskilled, untrained people in the car is not testing. There's zero part of the FSD program that is testing. It's marketing. But like I said, the good thing is more and more users receive the beta, realize Elon lied about its capabilities, and they stop using it.
Of course its testing, or do you think all product testing only occurs with trained professionals? Wrong, it's the exact opposite. You dont find out anything using trained testers, because they are trained. Trained professionals are, by definition, a biased input sample, and you will get a biased result. If Tesla tested FSD using people trained for the testing, they would end up with an NN that was useful only for people with that training. So your entire thesis is nonsense.

Oh, and remember Uber, and where all that "trained testing" of autonomous cars got them? One (tragically) dead cyclist and an abandoned program. If FSD is so dangerous, where are all the accidents? They have 60,000 testers now, using the beta for months. Do you think the press wouldn't be all over it should there be something major? We've had one accident, which almost certainly was the tester panicking and then trying to shift the blame to FSD when he drove the car off the road. Yeah, very dangerous. I challenged you earlier to provide any actual statistics to backup your claims of the danger, and you, of course, conveniently skipped over that challenge, and instead used the usual trick of jumping on some inconsequential issue because you had no answer.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion on what Tesla do with the data they get from the testers, but arguing that they are not using the real-world data as input to their training process is plain silly. Why would they do such a thing? Why would they discuss, in great detail, the process they use for factoring in that data into their NNs, and then not use it? And the way they label the data? And the work on Dojo? Do you think they made up all that as a publicity stunt?

Sure, that's right, it's all made-up stuff, like you say. Just like the moon landings. Just like Covid is caused by 5G cell towers. So let's skip the conspiracy theory nonsense and stay in the real world, shall we?
 
You won't be. Many have been begging this same thing since Navigate on Autopilot and "smart" summon were released. Autopilot will never ever progress beyond an extremely basic Level 3 system, and it will never be a good Level 3 system. Ever. Not ever.

If Tesla focused on releasing quality software rather than pissing talent away on this idiotic circus, they could have had something untouchable. But instead, the software quality has decreased dramatically and rapidly, hardware bugs are abundant, build quality has not improved, and we're still reading the absolute drivel he says on Twitter, rubbing peoples nose in their purchases.

The more people lose patience, the better for Tesla, because they can focus on real products. Not these moronic side quests like bipedal robots that nobody needs, and a fabled "advanced AI" which will literally never exist.
I've thought about this as well, I think the other 'party trick' features (like smart summon) have probably just been on the back burner as they concentrate on the core FSD. I don't think we can use the lifecycle of a sort of edge case feature like smart summon as a roadmap for how the general FSD is going to go -- its a lot more valuable to me to have the car take you places on public roads than it is to have it park quickly.

Would you want them to stop working on these betas and instead go work on improving the park/summon stuff? Those features are running off a much older design and they likely don't want to backport fixes/improvements or otherwise make that stack work well now that they've put so much resource into the newer stack (and likely fixed a lot of issues that are making smart summon pointless today). Even with infinite code monkeys that's not a good plan.
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
3,404
4,409
Seattle
Nope Not unclear on that. But PUBLIC beta implies it’s at least safe enough for use on public roads. It’s not. No point arguing with idiots though. Believe what you want.
Technically its not a public beta .. a public beta is open to anyone who wants to use it. Tesla select beta testers. You can argue about how well they do that selection, but nevertheless, it still doesnt qualify as a public beta.

And how do you conjoin "public beta" with "safe of public roads", apart from the word "public" occurring (with completely different semantics) in both? Or are you arguing that a public beta of a flame thrower must be safe enough to use on public roads?
 
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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
16,771
34,151
NC
Technically its not a public beta .. a public beta is open to anyone who wants to use it. Tesla select beta testers. You can argue about how well they do that selection, but nevertheless, it still doesnt qualify as a public beta.

And how do you conjoin "public beta" with "safe of public roads", apart from the word "public" occurring (with completely different semantics) in both? Or are you arguing that a public beta of a flame thrower must be safe enough to use on public roads?
Too bad it’s not Open Source beta whatchamacallit. Good candy bar if you’re old BTW. I’m sure a lot of this regression people describe can be attributed to the “learning” with the increasing sampling size. If everyone had it to beta test, we could get this thing off the ground in no time. After it’s live, people who didn’t “crowd source” it😁 would lose it. There would be more incentive for the masses to purchase, you know the ones who don’t want to be part of the magic, if it worked. My hats off to everyone who’s testing it, I’ll probably do a subscription once you guys perfect it. Keep up the good work!
 

raptor5244

Active Member
May 10, 2019
1,576
1,266
Florida
Well, no....he got a judgement in a lower, foreign, court. He won't get his money back unless Tesla fails to get it overturned through the appeals process.
The money isn't really the point, they could probably get all the money back just by selling the car in this current market. It is the precedent being set to hold manufactures more accountable for the software and its advertised functionality. This is not Microsoft Windows, it's a vehicle and people expect *sugar* to work in a vehicle. I hope the aviation industry does more testing with their autopilot. :)

Screen Shot 2022-03-30 at 3.23.41 PM.png
 

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