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The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

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We experience it differently then. I’m not exaggerating. I’ve never once had it tell me to take over or say it’s disabled. What are you driving? Your cameras old style? I use it from highway 1, to the 85 with zero interventions, speed set to 65. It usually goes 60. There are times I will press the accelerator because it goes down to 48 and it’s not needed. I never leave the fast lane. Usually people get out of the way because I’m going fast.

Maybe try just trusting it on areas that make you nervous. Don’t intervene early.

And 30 times in 3 years? I do it 5-6 times a week there and back.

Try it again.

I don’t live in Santa Cruz. I visit my daughter there about once a month.

I am a fast driver and a car enthusiast, which is probably why I don’t like AP driving like a grandma, or a teenager just learning to drive depending on the road conditions.

I have been honked at for going 65 in the fast lane when the speed limit is 55 just last month. I cannot believe how impatient the drivers are, on 17.

You say you are pressing the go pedal when AP slows to 48 mph or so, in tight turns? I’d say that is quite unsafe. I know you will disagree. Also, I’d think that counts as intervention, but again..

The car I drive is in my signature. I don’t know if I have ‘old style‘ cameras or not, and I don’t know whether it’s even relevant.
 
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The amount of attention/views/posts this thread has gotten compared to this one:

Speaks VOLUMES about the image of so called "FULL SELF Driving".

Imagine the image of it from non Tesla enthusiasts..
 
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The amount of attention/views/posts this thread has gotten compared to this one:



Speaks VOLUMES about the image of so called "FULL SELF Driving".
Imagine the image of it from non Tesla enthusiasts..
Don't feed the (moderator edit).
 
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Again, Tesla can recognize revenue from delivered stuff (and part of the FSD package is delivered- in fact 6 of the 7 listed features are) and can not recognize revenue from what they still owe-- THAT sits on the books as a liability (which is literally what deferred revenue is--- a liability that CONVERTS to revenue WHEN YOU DELIVER.
To be fair, even though a portion of that revenue is classified as deferred is still greatly impacts the stock price as Wall Street sees that as future revenue and tends to value the stock accordingly. Furthermore, who is to say when FSD is actually complete? Software companies ship software loaded with bugs and call it complete all the time. They may provide ongoing updates but I guess they get to collect if they want.
 
Had my first “cross double yellow” today… weird behavior. I was stopped behind a tractor trailer in a line of cars stopped at a red light, the car jerked left and quickly went to cross the double yellow. Having enough space in between me and the truck I was able to take over and put the car back into my lane. Luckily there was no on-coming traffic and paying attention I was able to take over before too much of the car crossed over.

Kind of wondering if the car doesn’t recognize the red light due to the height of the truck and thinks it’s some sort of double parked/disabled vehicle.
I've had this same issue many times. Typically when sitting behind a line of traffic where my car cannot see the traffic light ahead. I think it's a consequence of adding the ability to go around parked/disabled vehicles that is yet to be able to infer the situation correctly.
 
Many people seem to have a Yoda approach to AP/TACC/FSDBeta - "Do, or do not. There is no try." I think the fault is in the expectations from people, and the fatigue most feel for any EULA language. We install some software or buy a new iPhone and are given pages of legal language with an "Accept" button at the bottom. The vast majority just scroll down and press Accept without reading it. For the past decades, cars have had some form of cruise control, and recently adaptive cruise control. These are baked-in features and "just work" for most people. It's the point that they take the features for granted and assume they will "just work" on any vehicle that has such features.

Then comes Telsa with AP, TACC, and now FSD Beta. However, to use those feature (including "adaptive cruise control"), the driver has to enable them in the car's settings, which brings up an EULA type verbiage and an Accept button. Most people just press Accept and start using it. Then it doesn't live up to their expectations or experiences with other vehicles, and they become frustrated and, based on TMC threads, angry over it.

It may be helpful to look at Telsa as a totally different car company than any other. Yes, they have a car with a steering wheel, two pedals, a turn signal stalk, and "gear shifter" stalk. You can drive a Tesla like a normal vehicle. Aside from the center touchscreen controlling nearly every other aspect, it's a normal car, and can be driven as such.

However, Tesla's approach to all other features behind simple driving is done through new methods. In many ways it's cutting edge, but in other ways it's also different and frustrating. Other cars use old technology like radar and basic ECUs to handle their "adaptive cruise control", and it works well in most situations. Tesla went with vision (cameras) and neural nets to learn and adapt. Because there is no firmware code in basic ECUs to tell the car what to do, instead an elaborate array of heuristic algorithms and learning neural nets, the car works very differently than what most people expect. It's like a teenager learning how to drive for the first time. And the agreements that come up on the screen when you enable the advanced features of AP, TACC, and FSD Beta tell you that the software and hardware can act differently and cause problems, which requires your total concentration and control of the vehicle at all times.

So, if you want a car with adaptive cruise control that "just works" and based on tried-and-true technology for the past decade, there are many car companies out there to choose from, including many all-electrics on the road today. But many people buy Teslas because they love the cutting edge technology, the new approaches to driving, and innovative ways the company is advancing autonomy. Of course we're all excited and impatient for the future to manifest today, and frustrated at the setbacks and overpromises from Elon, but change takes time. Disruption of the market takes time. Full-Self-Driving takes time.

Is Tesla's approach to these advanced features the right way to do it? That's up to you to decide. You can be patient and turn off those features - driving the car just like any other car (though arguably more fun to drive!) and wait for Telsa's teenage brain to learn and evolve into something that can drive as good as us humans. Or you can decide that those features like adaptive cruise control are too important to you to wait for Tesla, and purchase another car that gives you what you need today. Then perhaps, in a few years, revisit Tesla or read these forums to see how AP, TACC, and FSD are progressing.

Hopefully this alternate way of seeing things will help some people. :)
 
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I've had this same issue many times. Typically when sitting behind a line of traffic where my car cannot see the traffic light ahead. I think it's a consequence of adding the ability to go around parked/disabled vehicles that is yet to be able to infer the situation correctly.
You’d imagine it would know there’s an upcoming traffic light due to the nav data though 🤔
 
Just really sick of people saying "I'm gonna file a complaint with 'insert agency here' if they dont fix what I dont like because im angry and my opinion is important! time to run to the government and regulators to have them step in!"

Piss off.

Its a ****ing BETA. you shouldn't have signed up for it. do you want to halt ALL progress? do you want them to only be able to test with a small amount of people that work directly for Tesla? great way to get real progress. lets limit the amount of miles AI is supposed to learn from when thats the ENTIRE ADVANTAGE of Tesla! the amount of miles its beta testers are driving. thinking like that holds back real progress in the world no matter what industry we are talking about.

More regulations isn't the problem. if you dont feel safe, stop using it. So tired of ungrateful, entitled complainers
You conveniently pick and choose words others say then add your own text around them to change their meanings so you can reinforce your outrage with anyone who disagrees with you.

This was not my original response to being told to piss off, but for some reason some moderator decided it should be moved to snippiness. I guess being told to piss off is fine, but my measured response was snippy.
 
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Tesla could eliminate much confusion and angst if they decoupled the FSD-Beta from the FSD purchase:
  1. Sell the current ADAS features (TACC, autosteer, etc.) at an appropriate price
  2. Allow good drivers to participate in the FSD-Beta regardless of their ADAS purchases
  3. Charge an appropriate fee for FSD when it exits Beta, with a discount for Beta-testers and existing ADAS owners
 
Tesla could eliminate much confusion and angst if they decoupled the FSD-Beta from the FSD purchase:
  1. Sell the current ADAS features (TACC, autosteer, etc.) at an appropriate price
  2. Allow good drivers to participate in the FSD-Beta regardless of their ADAS purchases
  3. Charge an appropriate fee for FSD when it exits Beta, with a discount for Beta-testers and existing ADAS owners
You know they wouldn’t be able to sell the snake oil without it being the current full package, right? Scroll through here and see how many people purchased the FSD for stuff they can’t live without: auto lane change on highways, very useful and highly functional summon, brake lock to stop at red lights.

I highly doubt they’ll make a move that’ll be beneficial for their customers and not their financial status.
 
Tesla could eliminate much confusion and angst if they decoupled the FSD-Beta from the FSD purchase:
  1. Sell the current ADAS features (TACC, autosteer, etc.) at an appropriate price
  2. Allow good drivers to participate in the FSD-Beta regardless of their ADAS purchases
  3. Charge an appropriate fee for FSD when it exits Beta, with a discount for Beta-testers and existing ADAS owners
Unfortunately, our market is filled with examples where that does not happen. Perfect example is Cable TV. Al-la-carte is not something the industry does well, and really doesn't want to do in the future. You can't get 1 single channel without subscribing to a package of channels. The argument from the industry is that your subscription to ESPN helps pay for the little-known channels like the knitting channel. That little channel would never be able to operate on its own without being subsidized by ESPN money. You could say the same thing for FSD. You're paying for AP/TACC now, and some of that money is going towards building future FSD. FSD Beta is being subsidized by AP/TACC money.
 
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Being an engineer and having been way over enthusiastically out over my skis on many occasions, I'm willing to forgive a lot of Elon's hype.

Being an engineer and having been way over enthusiastically out over my skis on many occasions, I never once considered FSD on any of my or my wife's S purchases.

Elon sells it because he truly wants it to work and people buy it because they truly want it to work. I may buy it when it works. Seems simple to me and I only have myself to blame if I am disappointed.
 
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I'll respond to each major point one by one.

In fact I'm not familiar with J3018 (though I'm aware of it)

I know. That wasn't an assumption, it was an educated guess because you demonstrated ample evidence that you didn't know what a trained driver was, or that there was a definition, or that the industry has been working on this for quite some time.

Are you claiming some expertise in this area?

I can claim I know vastly more than you, which has been my claim all along, and evidence has born out.

And do you think the casual FSD beta testers are the only testing Tesla does?

Roughly speaking, yes. Certainly the overwhelming majority of miles driven, and absolutely the majority of the functional testing. Remember the AEB trigger bug because they didn't test all hardware combinations? Guess which one of us is a hardware systems architect and predicted this would happen long ago.

And how do you know this?

Experience, and the history of Tesla. Remember when Tesla released "smart" summon? And then promised an update two weeks later? That was in 2019.

Do you really think they just bashed out an NN and handed it over to the beta testers?

No, they bashed out the NN long ago and have been adjusting parameters ever since. Now they're tuning weights and biases and handing it over to us testers. And it's not working. Because fundamentally the networks they're using are not even close to adequate to "solve" the problem. That's something we also knew years ago. If you're a software architect, you would have known this long ago too.

the reality is that FSD beta has been in the hands of 60,000 testers for months

Elon certainly claimed 60k. I doubt that claim is true, quite frankly. And I suspect most FSD beta vehicles are not being operated in FSD mode because it's so unreliable. It's more taxing to babysit that software than just drive.

no major accidents

The goalposts just keep on moving. First it was "no accidents" then FSD hit a bunch of *sugar*, so now it's no "major" accidents. even though it attempts to head on vehicles and pedestrians constantly. And that's not the FSD system doing good, that's the operators having a modicum of self preservation.

Can you say that of any of the other autonomous vehicle efforts you so loudly claim are better?

Not only can I say that about them, but their disengagements are measures in the hundreds of thousands and millions of miles, where Tesla is measured in singles of miles. The fact you don't realize this is a problem. So, we can either look at this like the J3018 document and perhaps accept that you're coming from a position of lack of knowledge and accept that you should go look this up before attempting to debate me, or I can yet again show you're wrong and we no longer have a productive conversation. Why ruin your argument by making wrong points based on lack of knowledge?