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The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

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So I went out this morning and tried it again.

If I leave "No" selected, as in your screen shot above, I must confirm automatic lane changes by activating the turn signal or pulling on the cruise control level.

If I select "Yes" to disable lane change confirmation, I'm prompted to apply a slight turning force to the steering wheel for each lane change. If I don't, the lane change will cancel in 10 seconds or so.

So on my car (late 2016 Model S, HW3 computer upgrade, MCU 2 upgrade, camera upgrade, software version 2022.8.2), I have to manually confirm "auto" lane changes regardless of the setting. The only thing that changes is which control I have to move. Is this not how it works in your car? 'cause that would be interesting.

That’s exactly how it works on my September 2018 Model 3 with EAP.

This is one of the minor things along with a lot of others that have kinda turned me into a non-fanboy of Tesla nowadays.

If it’s called ‘auto lane change, no confirmation’, in my mind, the car will change lanes without any human involvement at any stage, provided there aren’t any unsafe situations.

But it is not that, is it. It DOES require you to confirm the lane change.
 
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If it’s called ‘auto lane change, no confirmation’, in my mind, the car will change lanes without any human involvement at any stage

Why would you expect an explicitly L2 system, which always requires at least some level of human involvement 100% of the time to do that?


It DOES require you to confirm the lane change.

No, it does not.

It checks if your hands are on the wheel. As they're always supposed to be.

As myself and others have noted here- if you are holding the wheel in a detectable fashion, the check automatically passes and the car changes lanes- you don't have to "confirm" anything.
 
This is how it works in my car, but I apply a constant light torque to my steering wheel at all times, so it hardly feels like I'm confirming anything. Is that not what you do?

To me there seems to be a lot of variability in the torque sensor between vehicles, and obviously there will be variability in the torque that a human applies during a drive. I don't think anyone will consistency apply torque over 150+ miles.

In my experience my 2015 Model S was much easier to satisfy the torque requirement without even trying, and my 2018 Model 3 has always been rather annoying. I have noticed in builds after the driver monitoring was added that I'd get nagged less so its been more pleasant of late (not counting the nuisance phantom braking).

In any case I believe people need to be careful with Auto Lane change, and especially unconfirmed lane change.

The reason they need to be careful is that it will fail to execute lane changes occasionally, and its not always immediately clear as to why. When that happens its easy to assume the system is just glitchy, but it could be that 1/100 time where its seeing something that the driver isn't seeing.
 
if you are holding the wheel in a detectable fashion, the check automatically passes and the car changes lanes- you don't have to "confirm" anything.

I would say it's unconfirmed lane changes with a caveat of requiring a very recent torque sense.

Personally I think its a poor implementation, and I think a safer approach would have been to confirm with torque in the direction of the intended lane change.

It solves three issues:

1 - eliminates variability of torque sensing by requiring a sequence of no-torque and then torque.
2 - eliminates any confusion over what direction the lane change is. Like I've experienced doing a lane change to the right to do a pass instead of the left like I would have done.
3 - would make unconfirmed lane changes as quick to begin as confirmed lane changes (they were much slower last time I really tested it).
 
No, it does not.

It checks if your hands are on the wheel. As they're always supposed to be.

As myself and others have noted here- if you are holding the wheel in a detectable fashion, the check automatically passes and the car changes lanes- you don't have to "confirm" anything.
You know, I've been thinking some more about this. When on autopilot, the system requires you to occasionally-- the timing seems to be speed-dependent-- to exert some small amount of turning force on the steering wheel. Many of us have adopted a technique wherein we rest a hand on the wheel in a position that more or less constantly applies this force.

But it's not required for the car to speed up under autopilot. Or to slow down. Or to initiate automatic braking. In fact the car will even change lanes and exit a freeway without your hands on the wheel at all.

Only the automatic lane change requires your hands on the wheel. This one feature is handled differently from all the other actions autopilot can take. That was the source of my original confusion.
 
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That’s exactly how it works on my September 2018 Model 3 with EAP.

This is one of the minor things along with a lot of others that have kinda turned me into a non-fanboy of Tesla nowadays.

If it’s called ‘auto lane change, no confirmation’, in my mind, the car will change lanes without any human involvement at any stage, provided there aren’t any unsafe situations.

But it is not that, is it. It DOES require you to confirm the lane change.
if you use a wheel weight, there's no confirmation needed. so its your amount of torque on the wheel thats the problem
 
You know, I've been thinking some more about this. When on autopilot, the system requires you to occasionally-- the timing seems to be speed-dependent-- to exert some small amount of turning force on the steering wheel.

This is not accurate.

Though it's how it might "seem" to work if you don't understand the actual system.

You are required always to have hands on wheel, and be ready to take over at any time.

Teslas default method to verify you are doing that is a torque sensor in the wheel-- checking for resistance to APs movements of said wheel.


When, and how often, it checks can vary. But the requirement for the driver (be holding the wheel) is always


The only thing "special" going on with unconfirmed auto lane changes is its actively running one of those checks before it changes lanes.

You aren't required to "do" anything at that time you're not already supposed to be doing 100% of the time the system is on



But it's not required for the car to speed up under autopilot. Or to slow down. Or to initiate automatic braking. In fact the car will even change lanes and exit a freeway without your hands on the wheel at all.


Again this is wrong.

You are required to have your hands there -100% of the time-

The owners manual is clear on this. So is the message that comes on whenyou activate autopilot

It just doesn't always actively check for those things.

handson.png




It's possible some future version of the system won't use the torque check.... though given how poorly the current in car camera is for replacing it that seems unlikely on most current cars... (IIRC the refresh S/X at least have an updated interior cam but haven't looked into it much to see if it has greater driver monitoring capabilities than the one in most Teslas)[/QUOTE]
 
First, you said you press the go pedal to accelerate in very tight turns on the very hilly highway 17 when AP wanted to go slower. Now you are advocating the use of wheel weights.

What next, sleeping or working in the back seat while the wheel weights allow the car to drive?

 
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This is not accurate.

Though it's how it might "seem" to work if you don't understand the actual system.
It is entirely accurate. The system behaves exactly as I described.

The source of our disagreement is our differing interpretations of the word "required".

Your definition is Tesla's, stated as you note in their warning about Autosteer. Tesla does indeed insist that your hands remain on the wheel at all times, and is thus a "requirement" for the use of Autosteer features. FWIW, other things like tapping the cruise control lever or initiating a lane change with a turn signal also "count" as "Hands on wheel" as best I can tell.

However, as you know, the car will happily perform a variety of Autopilot and Autosteer functions without your hands on the wheel at all. The best example is the one I mentioned, where the car will activate its turn signals, change lanes, and take a highway exit without your hands on the wheel (if the timing works out, that is). Thus in my definition, hands on the wheel is not required, since the car will perform these actions without your hands on the wheel. And this is why the behavior of auto lane change with confirmation disabled confused me: it's the only Autopilot feature that really does require your hands on the wheel RIGHT NOW.

I agree with you that Tesla's current "torque sense" driver attention detection could be done better. I was disappointed that the refresh Model S cars didn't incorporate a driver-facing camera, as companies like Cadillac, Ford, and others have demonstrated that this works well to discern whether the driver's really paying attention. Then again, this is the company that quit using a $5 rain sensor to develop their own "AI "is it raining" image analysis" that doesn't work nearly as well, so there's that. Honestly, I can live with the current system...
 
It is entirely accurate. The system behaves exactly as I described.

No, it doesn't.


The source of our disagreement is our differing interpretations of the word "required".

Your definition is Tesla's, stated as you note in their warning about Autosteer. Tesla does indeed insist that your hands remain on the wheel at all times, and is thus a "requirement" for the use of Autosteer features.

Then it's not so much "differing interpretations" as "I gave you the correct definition, which you admit the car maker themselves says is correct- but you don't like anyway"



Thus in my definition, hands on the wheel is not required

Which you already admitted, per the manual, and Tesla themselves, is wrong.

"Isn't actively checking if you're doing what is required" does not mean "therefore isn't required"


If you're going 40 MPH over the speed limit, but nobody notices, you're still breaking the law.



it's the only Autopilot feature that really does require your hands on the wheel RIGHT NOW.

Again- this is wrong.

ALL of them require it. It repeatedly tells you this in writing, as even you have admitted.

This is just the only one that always double-checks you're doing what is always required



I was disappointed that the refresh Model S cars didn't incorporate a driver-facing camera

The refresh S (and X) absolutely has one

It's just unclear if it's significantly better than the one in the 3/Y yet.



Tesla said:
Cabin camera is located above the rear-view mirror and is equipped in the following vehicles:

Model S (produced in 2021 or later)
Model X (produced in 2021 or later)
Model 3
Model Y
 
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I agree with you that Tesla's current "torque sense" driver attention detection could be done better. I was disappointed that the refresh Model S cars didn't incorporate a driver-facing camera, as companies like Cadillac, Ford, and others have demonstrated that this works well to discern whether the driver's really paying attention

I think a lot of disagreement on here are simply the result of how one chooses to interpret what someone says.

This statement from you I can choose to respond three different ways.

1.) The A-hole response -> The refreshed Model S/X do have cabin cameras that are used for driver monitoring, and you're a total idiot for not knowing this. Please try to keep up.

2.) The Puzzled response -> Can you clarify what you mean by that? Does the cabin camera not meet your standard for driver monitoring? Or were you unware of the cabin camera based approach for the refreshed Model S/X?

3.) The charitable response -> Yeah, Tesla really should have implemented a REAL driver monitoring system with the refresh or at the very least vastly improve their ability to do driver monitoring at night, and through sun-glasses. They should have also implemented a system for measuring drowsiness. Maybe even switch out the torque sensor in the steering wheel for a capacitive based system. Obviously they're going to be at L2 for a long time so might as well improve driver monitoring as much as possible.

A lot of people who are heavily active on the internet go with #1 because of the satisfaction of telling someone they're wrong. #1 is also the simplest as its fire and forget.
 
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I hope they implement the driver’s eyes monitoring feature for the AP.

No solution will be perfect. Drivers can choose to wear ‘always awake’ gag glasses, for example.

However, the current solution is a bit too user-unfriendly. For example, I always resort tot he volume up/down for keeping my nag quiet. However, recent updates have the nag asking me to actually turn the wheel after a few times with volume button. When this happens, sometimes the nag doesn’t go away even after I have been tugging at the wheel a few times. Then, I resort to tugging too hard, and EAP gets disabled. 😐
 
People's opinions of FSD come in many forms. Many people without experience in actual self-driving technology are quite impressed by it. That might include you. But you may be puzzled that pretty much everybody with actual experience thinks it's a very poor effort at present, with a great deal more distance to go, unlikely to be achieved prior to other projects (from tech companies, not car companies) going commercial, and possibly not for a great deal of time, if ever, on the current sensor configuration.

Why this disconnect? People of course are not satisfied at appeal to authority and expertise, that is not enough, though it certainly is a hint when the inexperienced like it and the experienced find it wanting. That is reason to try to examine your own view. In trying to understand this difference, I have come upon several factors:
  • The gamble: While many agree with the Tesla team that driving with just cameras might be possible some day, even Tesla admits it requires breakthroughs which do not yet exist, and for which the path is not known. A breakthrough could come next week, or take years. As such, one can have optimism about FSD because you have optimism about Tesla's ability to be the one to make this breakthrough. On the other hand, approaches with more than cameras no longer need any more fundamental breakthroughs, though they do need more work. One can bet either way.
  • The "Geofence" illusion: Many think that Tesla's attempt to drive without maps is a feature, which lets it someday handle more territory. They deride the pilot projects which work in only a few cities, imagining them inferior to a system which doesn't work but doesn't work in many more cities. They think mapping is inherently too difficult and expensive, or that handling extremely rare surprise areas where maps are out of date is somehow harer than handling never having maps in the first place. (They also think that surprises for out of date maps must be common rather than extremely rare.) In fact, making the vehicle work at all anywhere is the hard problem. Expanding the map region is the easy problem. (You can watch my Youtube video and article on why Tesla would get working faster, not slower, if they moved to requiring maps, if you want more detail. )
  • The false confidence: Many are impressed that they drove a trip without needing interventions. Though I have not managed my to get my Model 3 to do that yet, I have seen reports and videos of those who have. People say "wow" but don't understand how spectacularly unimpressive that is. To be ready for production, you need a car to be able to drive for a whole human lifetime without an intervention to prevent a significant accident. An hour, a day, a week? They mean nothing. Really. Waymo's cars have done 10 human lifetimes without ever being at fault for an accident in reality or in sim, and they're still only in pilot projects, though very close to release. And you're impressed by an hour? Instead, the fact that it often can't go 5 minutes is the real datum you should pay attention to.
  • The neural network leap of faith: There are many people who feel that the AI capacity of deep neural networks is unbounded. That if you just throw enough training and a big enough processor at it, there is nothing, even driving, that it can't solve. There are experts who believe this, and there are experts who don't believe it and they have arguments. But none would say they are sure. This is part of the gamble. However, it is important to know that when it comes to neural network expertise, a wide consensus is that Google (which spawned Waymo and provides tech to it) has by far the most advanced neural network expertise, as well as the highest performance neuromorphic processors. So if you believe in this approach, Tesla is not the likely winner. Tesla is not without its advantages, but they are fewer than many imagine.
  • The bold claims: Tesla definitely makes the boldest claims about when they will make it work. Unfortunately the track record on those claims is now so poor that they must be disregarded. I am at a loss to understand why Elon Musk keeps making those claims. He is somebody of great achievement which is what has led people to have faith and accept these bold claims, but when it comes to predicting the progress of FSD, he is no longer somebody of great achievement in that particular area. I am happy to trust his predictions on space and EVs and several other areas, but no longer on this.
  • The generation of antagonism: While being brash is often the path to success, you can overdo it, and antagonize people at all levels, from the California DMV to the President of the USA, to the point that it slows you down rather than gives you freedom. I fear Tesla has tripped over that line.
  • The "Beta" name: Tesla FSD is not even remotely close to a beta. In software development, a project moves to beta testing when it is in a near-release state, when internal alpha testing is not finding bugs fast enough to keep the team occupied. A product is not a beta if it is regularly getting major rewrites of components and experts more of those, along with many new features. That's a prototype, not a beta. Some companies have in recent history certainly stretched the meaning of beta quite a bit, but none nearly so much as calling FSD a beta. Don't be fooled by that name.
Few people understand the meaning of beta. For the common man, it only means it is not the final product. Which is not wrong.
 
First, you said you press the go pedal to accelerate in very tight turns on the very hilly highway 17 when AP wanted to go slower. Now you are advocating the use of wheel weights.

What next, sleeping or working in the back seat while the wheel weights allow the car to drive?

It doesn’t need to slow to 40 on some turns. So I accelerate. And the weight isn’t for everyone, but when i do the 280, or the 5, or 80 daily, I don’t need to keep torque/weight on the wheel always. AP has been flawless for me for 17,000 miles, and I’m not an idiot.
 
As myself and others have noted here- if you are holding the wheel in a detectable fashion, the check automatically passes and the car changes lanes- you don't have to "confirm" anything.
I’m not sure that is the case. I’ve never had NoA make a lance change for me just by holding the wheel. I always have to do a couple of tugs to tell it to go ahead .. which seems a “conformation” to me. And, in fact, if I tug the wheel WHILE it is (say) vibrating, it doesn’t notice it. I tend to agree with the other posters, NoA does always need some active input (confirmation) before is performs a lane change (unlikes FSD beta).
 
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I’m not sure that is the case. I’ve never had NoA make a lance change for me just by holding the wheel. I always have to do a couple of tugs to tell it to go ahead .. which seems a “conformation” to me. And, in fact, if I tug the wheel WHILE it is (say) vibrating, it doesn’t notice it. I tend to agree with the other posters, NoA does always need some active input (confirmation) before is performs a lane change (unlikes FSD beta).
Same. I have confirmation off. Definitely requires torque at each instance of an auto lane change.
 
I hope they implement the driver’s eyes monitoring feature for the AP.

No solution will be perfect. Drivers can choose to wear ‘always awake’ gag glasses, for example.

However, the current solution is a bit too user-unfriendly. For example, I always resort tot he volume up/down for keeping my nag quiet. However, recent updates have the nag asking me to actually turn the wheel after a few times with volume button. When this happens, sometimes the nag doesn’t go away even after I have been tugging at the wheel a few times. Then, I resort to tugging too hard, and EAP gets disabled. 😐
I have instances occasionally where the car does not respond to the wheel tug. I've learned to simply turn off NOA and reenable it. Saves from doing time in AP jail!