All you are saying is that it's been harder than Tesla (or anyone else for that matter) originally anticipated to make autonomous driving work. I think everyone already knows that.
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The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla
- Thread starter SilverString
- Start date
Are there any naysayers here?
There are L5 naysayers
There are L4 HW3 naysayers
There are Vision only naysayers
There are AI General Intelligence naysayers
But, autonomous driving naysayers? I'm not seeing anyone.
The problem with General Intelligence, and L5 is they rely on the uninvented. There basically "just add magic" fantasies. The most important thing to any solid goal is not to have any "insert magic here" bits.
There is also the society question and this is the one I really wonder about. Are there places outside of China that are really preparing its infrastructure, rule books, etc for autonomous driving technologies. Autonomous driving is only partly a technological problem.
I tend to think that the infrastructure changes that would help AVs will come once it becomes clear a scalable general solution at L4 is achieved.
Similar to how our electrical grid will adapt with more decentralized generation and storage when EVs reach critical mass.
Sometimes you need to create a chicken in order to have the egg.
Everything has been talked about over, and over so I'd hope everyone already knows everything by now.
In any case the question I was responding to was whether Tesla promised autonomous driving. L2 FSD is NOT autonomous driving so I felt like it was an important question to answer.
If I interpret what you wrote as question:
There isn't anyone else because Tesla was the only one who sold it to consumers.
When you sell something then time is of the essence.
If you can't deliver then the right move is to apologize, and move on.
What Tesla did was change the promise for new buyers from autonomous driving to L2 semi-autonomous without any real acknowledgement that the goal had changed.
Tesla wants to have people believing the goal is still some form of unsupervised autonomous driving, but doesn't want to be held accountable to that.
Daniel in SD
(supervised)
Can anyone find a reported AV collision that would have been prevented by infrastructure changes?
www.dmv.ca.gov
Autonomous Vehicle Collision Reports - California DMV
Manufacturers who are testing autonomous vehicles need to report any collision that resulted in property damage, bodily injury, or death within 10 days of the incident.
www.dmv.ca.gov
It was not a question. And the discussion of L2 vs Ln vs FSD is discussed multiple times per week here, so nothing new here either.Everything has been talked about over, and over so I'd hope everyone already knows everything by now.
In any case the question I was responding to was whether Tesla promised autonomous driving. L2 FSD is NOT autonomous driving so I felt like it was an important question to answer.
If I interpret what you wrote as question:
There isn't anyone else because Tesla was the only one who sold it to consumers.
When you sell something then time is of the essence.
If you can't deliver then the right move is to apologize, and move on.
What Tesla did was change the promise for new buyers from autonomous driving to L2 semi-autonomous without any real acknowledgement that the goal had changed.
Tesla wants to have people believing the goal is still some form of unsupervised autonomous driving, but doesn't want to be held accountable to that.
When browsing the "news" I came across an article on The Verge about AI day being moved to September 30th.
It was a pretty simple delay where Tesla wanted time to possibly show a working prototype of their robot. But, the author of this article couldn't help himself and used it as an opportunity to express his own distrust in everything Elon and Tesla related.
I do wonder whether FSD really has anything to do with the erosion of Trust in Tesla or if its really the fact that a lot of people are getting sick and tired of Musk.
Most of the expectations and letdowns with FSD are really driven by Elons tweets.
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www.theverge.com
It was a pretty simple delay where Tesla wanted time to possibly show a working prototype of their robot. But, the author of this article couldn't help himself and used it as an opportunity to express his own distrust in everything Elon and Tesla related.
I do wonder whether FSD really has anything to do with the erosion of Trust in Tesla or if its really the fact that a lot of people are getting sick and tired of Musk.
Most of the expectations and letdowns with FSD are really driven by Elons tweets.
Elon Musk says Tesla’s fake robot might be ready by September 30th
Are we being set up for another fake out?
www.theverge.com
Can anyone find a reported AV collision that would have been prevented by infrastructure changes?
Autonomous Vehicle Collision Reports - California DMV
Manufacturers who are testing autonomous vehicles need to report any collision that resulted in property damage, bodily injury, or death within 10 days of the incident.
I'd be really surprised if there was because if I was an employee of an AV company I'd geofence out a problematic area.
FSD Beta is not an AV, but if we pretend it is then there are a bunch of post about crashes prevented by the human in areas where the FSD beta was confused because of bad road design.
We also know infrastructure plays a large role in human crashes. Things like short on-ramps with limited visibility or areas where humans get confused about what they're supposed to do.
Reducing ambiguity will help things for both AV designers, and humans.
We also need to improve the infrastructure to support more efficient traffic flow, and AV's are projected to lead to much more traffic.
Yet again tonight I was disappointed by how AP/NoA handles highway sideswipes by bad lane changers/inattentive drivers.
That is to say - it does absolutely nothing and I have to intervene hard and fast.
Nonetheless, it has frequently refused to pass someone and kept a slow speed if an adjacent lane is going a bit slower / car forward & right of me has a tire even near the lane line.
Tonight, for probably the 3rd time in my ownership of this car, I have had someone immediately next to me enter my lane & nearly sideswipe me while I am on AP. It seems like the cameras just does not notice cars if your front end has started to become parallel with their rear end.
Really reduces my confidence in the product and I hope is a reminder to everyone using it that you need to treat the car like a student driver, with your hands on wheel and foot above break at all times.
That is to say - it does absolutely nothing and I have to intervene hard and fast.
Nonetheless, it has frequently refused to pass someone and kept a slow speed if an adjacent lane is going a bit slower / car forward & right of me has a tire even near the lane line.
Tonight, for probably the 3rd time in my ownership of this car, I have had someone immediately next to me enter my lane & nearly sideswipe me while I am on AP. It seems like the cameras just does not notice cars if your front end has started to become parallel with their rear end.
Really reduces my confidence in the product and I hope is a reminder to everyone using it that you need to treat the car like a student driver, with your hands on wheel and foot above break at all times.
That's funny because I always thought its highway exiting/entering was horrific and I always take over immediately anyway.
One of the things that has not gotten any better in my years of driving HW2/HW3 AP.
One of the things that has not gotten any better in my years of driving HW2/HW3 AP.
Or it could simply be because it's out side the scope of the current regulation.
If we were the regulators would we allow it?
Is the convenience of it worth the risk? The risk being that the driver is inattentive, and doesn't take over before the car enters an intersection?
I personally don't use that feature. Sure its neat, but I don't find it particularly useful. Usually I use the last mile to reacquaint myself to driving the car before the exit.
It’s just (probably) coincidental that France is about to introduce a L3 law based on the new German one which is tailor-made to fit Mercedes’ version of it’s L3...and now a Tesla feature (that has been in existence for a long time) is to be banned.
I wish we had more Europeans in this section to comment about how regulators and automotive companies work in Germany.
In my own interaction with Germans they tend to be extremely biased to Germany companies, and German made things. So I'm not surprised the least if regulations are written with a strong bias towards German companies.
It's not really that different in the US where sometimes entire bills are actually written by lobbyist paid for by corporations. Even our president should have company Logos on his suits.
The new L3 law is so restrictive that it’s close to useless....freeway only at less than 35mph...no bridges, tunnels no nothing....but it’s not yet been made clear (to me at least) what happens in the event of an accident... will your insurance cover you? Will Mercedes take responsibility? Do the police care?
I wouldn't call that restrictive. Instead the intention of it is a traffic assist system, and there are lots of people including me that don't believe an L3 system will ever be released that's capable of freeway speeds. There is too much risk with the handoff. You'll find the same restrictions in Japan where Honda has pilot program going on.
With L3 Mercedes has to take responsibility as that's what makes it special.
As to the police that's going to be an interesting question. This is another reason why I wish we had more Europeans in this forum so they can provide information if something happens.
With L3 the finger pointing game is inevitable.
I remember. Thanks. It's just fuzzy to me where Tesla publishes that information specifically. I don't think there's any explicit separation of pre March 2019 FSD and post march 2019 FSD in what is shown in the software menu in the car(s).
Is "NYC to LA with no human intervention by end of 2017" L2 or L4? And which set of cameras are used in that achievement? Which hardware?
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
It's based on what you were shown during the purchase process.
What was shown to buyers at each point has been posted several times in the threads here if you want specific wording.... (there was a version pre 3/19 that promised L4 (at least), then one for a while after that had "end of year" wording on the city streets stuff...Tesla explicitly missed that deadline....and then there's been the "coming soon" wording for city streets that replaced it and is still there today)
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