The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

[enemji]

From my perspective, it doesn't matter whether they use lidar, radar, sonar, particle beams, magnetic waves, ultrasound, etc. The problem is they're never in our lifetimes going to make software competent to handle all the rare and unpredictable occurrences that the human brain can handle. E.g.: Something falls on the road in front of you and you don't have time to stop, what do you do? The human brain will try to figure out what it is, how dangerous it would be to drive through it, how dangerous it would be to swerve, etc. and make a good decision. The Tesla will be programmed: "Object ahead; Brake immediately."

Full self driving will never happen until we have software capable of passing the Turing test. It's not going to happen in our lifetimes.

I guess you have never heard of AI/ML pattern recognition which everyone including google and tesla have been working on

 

[Knightshade]

Is "NYC to LA with no human intervention by end of 2017"

That was, of course, never a promised deadline in the description of what you were purchasing.

As you've had explained to you 397 previous times.


Hell, even the actual quote you're grossly misrepresenting was for a demo not a public release-- and was something Elon said he 'felt pretty good about' not that he guaranteed it.


Given Tesla has missed actual promises to customers it's weird how you fixate on things that aren't even that.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Is "NYC to LA with no human intervention by end of 2017" L2 or L4? And which set of cameras are used in that achievement? Which hardware?

I recollect Elon mentioned in some interview that you could summon your car from California to NYC. Could take a couple of days, but would pick you up from your hotel in NYC.

Thus L5

Not holding my breath

 

[2101Guy]

That was, of course, never a promised deadline in the description of what you were purchasing.

As you've had explained to you 397 previous times.


Hell, even the actual quote you're grossly misrepresenting was for a demo not a public release-- and was something Elon said he 'felt pretty good about' not that he guaranteed it.


Given Tesla has missed actual promises to customers it's weird how you fixate on things that aren't even that.

So L5.
Got it.
Thanks!

 

[nvx1977]

As you've had explained to you 397 previous times.

I find myself debating whether Knightshade is exaggerating here, or if he's actually keeping count.

 

[Knightshade]

So L5.
Got it.
Thanks!

You definitely have something.

I hope it's not contagious!

I recollect Elon mentioned in some interview that you could summon your car from California to NYC. Could take a couple of days, but would pick you up from your hotel in NYC.

Thus L5

Actual quote was something he said on twitter....

In ~2 years, summon should work anywhere connected by land & not blocked by borders, eg you're in LA and the car is in NY

Of course again this is not a promised feature listed as part of your purchase, it's a forward looking aspirational goal posted on twitter.

And a vague enough one L4 could potentially satisfy it.... (and they quite obviously missed the target date )

 

[DrChaos]

Tonight, for probably the 3rd time in my ownership of this car, I have had someone immediately next to me enter my lane & nearly sideswipe me while I am on AP. It seems like the cameras just does not notice cars if your front end has started to become parallel with their rear end.

There is literally a blind spot--there is no camera coverage of the low point on the front corners. I wonder if the ultrasonics can still work at speed with the amount of road noise.

 

[Raurele]

I wouldn't call that restrictive. Instead the intention of it is a traffic assist system, and there are lots of people including me that don't believe an L3 system will ever be released that's capable of freeway speeds. There is too much risk with the handoff. You'll find the same restrictions in Japan where Honda has pilot program going on.

With L3 Mercedes has to take responsibility as that's what makes it special.

As to the police that's going to be an interesting question. This is another reason why I wish we had more Europeans in this forum so they can provide information if something happens.

With L3 the finger pointing game is inevitable.

I use NoA on freeways 150-350 miles a day, only scrolling the wheel for wheel nag. Never disengaging. Lvl 3 on freeways is already there, it just can’t be technically called that. It handles auto lane changes and exits perfectly. No idea what you’re talking about. Do you have anything positive to say? Reading your responses is getting pretty old.

 

[Supcom]

There is literally a blind spot--there is no camera coverage of the low point on the front corners. I wonder if the ultrasonics can still work at speed with the amount of road noise.

If you drive close to a barrier on the highway, the visualization indicates a close object at the corners of the car. I expect that is done using the ultrasonic sensors.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Lvl 3 on freeways is already there

Yes, by MB not Tesla.

Let’s not pretend Tesla has L3. That is simply not true. And promoting such idea might put someone who would believe that in serious danger.

 

[sjg98]

There is literally a blind spot--there is no camera coverage of the low point on the front corners. I wonder if the ultrasonics can still work at speed with the amount of road noise.

Yes I think from all the behavior I've seen and the lack of decent blind spot indicators on the car, there is clearly a bling spot to the cameras.
Another design issue that makes FSD becoming a reality (or a step function better improvement) without an updated imaging/sensor/compute suite (basically car redesign) unlikely to me.

 

[sjg98]

Yes, by MB not Tesla.

Let’s not pretend Tesla has L3. That is simply not true. And promoting such idea might put someone who would believe that in serious danger.

Agreed. I think the "it's already L3, bro" attitudes are almost as dangerous as the "just buy one of those weights to trick the AP nag so you can really zone out on the road" promoters. Gonna get people killed.

You truly have to watch the road and what this car is doing like a Drivers Ed instructor taking a student on a road lesson.

It is sometimes good enough due to road/traffic conditions for an hour at a time to lull you into thinking otherwise, but you really cannot just trust this thing.

 

[Knightshade]

There is literally a blind spot--there is no camera coverage of the low point on the front corners. I wonder if the ultrasonics can still work at speed with the amount of road noise.

To be clear, the blind spot near the front is low

It would not be blind to another vehicle in that spot unless the vehicle was a literal skateboard....anything higher than that on the sides, but in front of the fender cams, the B-pillar/front facing cams would see.

The front/low blind spot is primarily an issue for parking purposes (a situation where the ultrasonic also have blind spots, especially very close) and why Tesla could not offer a realtime 360 overhead parking view without added hardware.

 

[daktari]

Even without FSD, Tesla is still the best driving car on the road....

No. So many are better driving cars: EQS, iX, Taycan, e-tron, Nio ES8. Superior suspension. Seats and noise insulation. But Tesla are fun and have other excellent features like low consumption, smart interior and nice MMI.

 

[2101Guy]

Even without FSD, Tesla is still the best driving car on the road....

"LOL" says every Porsche 911 driver..ever.

 

[EVNow]

FSD has become a catastrophe, and a dangerous one at that.

 

[Dewg]

View attachment 813345

Shouldn't that be 2nd amendment? Still interesting numbers.

 

[sjg98]

Shouldn't that be 2nd amendment? Still interesting numbers.

Maybe its 2nd amendment people responding to something said by a 1st amendment person, hard to say.

Anyway I think the stats are silly since
1) If you follow Tesla's guidance, you are only supposed to be using Autopilot on the easiest/safest type of routes & situations
2) Total number of US based AP fatal accidents is silly if there are only ~1M Tesla's on the road vs 300M+ other cars
3) Tesla's "AP accidents per miles where AP is engaged vs accidents for all other miles driven" is also kind of a BS number due to.. my first point

 

[sjg98]

To be clear, the blind spot near the front is low

It would not be blind to another vehicle in that spot unless the vehicle was a literal skateboard....anything higher than that on the sides, but in front of the fender cams, the B-pillar/front facing cams would see.

The front/low blind spot is primarily an issue for parking purposes (a situation where the ultrasonic also have blind spots, especially very close) and why Tesla could not offer a realtime 360 overhead parking view without added hardware.

Right I think that is indicative of the issue I am talking about.
If there is a low front blind spot, then the car literally cannot see a car which is adjacent-to slightly-forward in next lane tires crossing the lane line.

It will brake & slow pretty conservatively for a car 1-5 car lengths forward even coming close to touching the line.
However this is about the 3rd time I have seen a cars tires basically cross the paint inches to my side&forward, with AP was happy to proceed.

Could also be the interplay of the distance with imaging & decision latency.
When the car is that close, you have less than a second to respond.
When the car is a few car lengths forward, all I notice is the false positives when AP slows/brakes, even if it was 1 second late to do so.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I use NoA on freeways 150-350 miles a day, only scrolling the wheel for wheel nag. Never disengaging. Lvl 3 on freeways is already there, it just can’t be technically called that. It handles auto lane changes and exits perfectly. No idea what you’re talking about. Do you have anything positive to say? Reading your responses is getting pretty old.

Why'd you interpret what I said as negative?

Clearly I was defending the accomplishment of MB on introducing an L3 system onto the market. That it was a bigger accomplishment than the restrictions make it out to be.

My response was a positive response, and I'm not even someone who cares all that much for traffic assist L3.

I'm an L4 advocate as I believe that's the sweet spot.

As to Tesla nothing in what I said that you quoted was about Tesla.