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The controversy in fast charging for electric vehicles

Discussion in 'News' started by EVNow, Aug 4, 2010.

  1. EVNow

    EVNow Active Member

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    http://www.examiner.com/x-14333-Green-Transportation-Examiner~y2010m7d30-The-controversy-in-fast-charging-for-electric-vehicles-PlugIn-2010

    What is more important - a single port or a quick decision ? With millions being spent right now by the government to install fast chargers in many areas, it seems to me a quick decision to adopt Japanese standard is the right thing. I'm also naturally suspicious of GM holding the position of chairman - I think there is a conflict of interest here.
     
  2. ChadS

    ChadS Petroleum is for sissies

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    CHAdeMO cars and chargers are already being made, and already being installed in the U.S.--for example, along I-5 in Washington State. As expensive and useful as L3 chargers are, I think it would be a mistake for a future car to arrive with a different port that doesn't work with installed L3 chargers. And it would have to be a ways in the future (when there are more L3 chargers around), if it can't be built until after another standard is defined. I see some drawbacks to CHAdeMO, but I don't see any way to stop it now (and I don't think the drawbacks are big enough that we should try).
     
  3. ChargeIt!

    ChargeIt! Member

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    +1. Agree completely with Chad here.

    And ... Nissan ... are you listening ?? Put an L3 port on absolutely every LEAF delivered at no charge to the customer (not just the EVProject ones). That's the way to make the CHAdeMO **THE** standard.
     
  4. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    #4 doug, Aug 6, 2010
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2010
    If they're so concerned about having one port, I think they should have gone with Mennenkes which can do 50 kW via 3 phase. That Yazaki J1772 connector is pretty short sighted in my opinion. SAE fast charging proposal basically ads a couple pins so that their existing Level 2 connector can work with the new port. See it on slide 10 here.
     
  5. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    #5 vfx, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #6 stopcrazypp, Jul 6, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2011
    Given Tesla wants 45 minute charging on the ~90kWh battery in the 300 mile version, that'll require a 120kW connection. The Japanese CHAdeMO is 50kW so won't be powerful enough (although it can probably charge the 160 mile version in 45 minutes).

    If SAE follows plan on the J1772 extension and has equipment samples by fall of this year and the standard finalized by the end of this year (or spring 2012 at the latest) then there is a good chance Tesla can incorporate it into the Model S. That would be more ideal than another proprietary standard.
     
  7. markwj

    markwj Moderator, Asia Pacific

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    Did they actually say that? I thought it was marketing speak (like from $50k after incentives and up to 300 mile range).

    I always assumed the 30/45 minute goal was for 160mile pack.
     
  8. JRod0802

    JRod0802 Member

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    I think I remember hearing in an old interview that it would be 45 minutes when charging up to 90% (or so). Perhaps they mean 45 minutes in Standard Mode or something (meaning from 10% to 90%). I think they were talking about the 300-mile pack, but I'm not sure.

    Either way, I hope the new SAE fast-charging standard is a good one, gets finalized quickly, and gets adopted by Tesla. Somehow I doubt that I'll make it to the Model S though. The beta models are supposed to be 99% complete, with only small changes (probably mostly to firmware),to occur between that and the production version. Last I heard the first betas would be done in the summer of 2011. I don't think a new DC charging solution would be considered part of the last 1%.
     
  9. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Regardless of which DC-connector they deliver in the US they should support CHAdeMO in Europe as that's what's getting deployed here.
     
  10. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    In the UK I suspect that we will not see a large number of CHAdeMO chargers installed.... certainly the UK Government has switched it's focus from long distance travel to home and workplace charging. It's most recent strategy document suggests that we will see "around 50" rapid chargers across the whole of the UK;

    http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/making-the-connection-the-plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy/plug-in-vehicle-infrastructure-strategy.pdf
     
  11. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #11 eledille, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
    jkirkebo, do you have a reference for that? As far as I know, they are mainly installing three phase poles in Europe, take a look here, for example. Some few CHAdeMO chargers among lots of RWE poles, quite a few three phase 16 A/400 V red outlets, and of course the boring single phase 16 A/230 V schukos.

    I can't see how CHAdeMO will survive long term. It provides virtually zero benefit except being able to say "We support quick charging". CHAdeMO chargers need a three phase power supply, so the "we don't have three phase around here" argument is meaningless. The cars all contain exactly the same equipment that's in the CHAdeMO charger inside their PEM. Recharging is the same operation whether the power is taken from the motor or the three phase grid, the PEM has to rectify and regulate voltage and current in both cases. The only item missing is a contactor that will disconnect the motor when connecting the PEM directly to the three phase supply. Why duplicate all that expensive gear?

    Even if time-to-market considerations rule out the use of a unified PEM/charger unit in the current generation of EVs, one should try to predict future needs before starting to roll out expensive infrastructure. Future needs, at least in Europe, include three phase charging. There simply is no way around it. The European grid except for the UK is three phase all the way, and any proposal that ignores this fact by either suggesting that we should rewire every home (J1772) or duplicate expensive equipment (CHAdeMO) is bound to be a dead end here.

    As far as I can see, the only case in which a CHAdeMO charger actually does any good at all is when the PEM is unable to regenerate at a sufficient rate. I don't know what regen power the Leaf, MiEV etc are capable of, but I do know that my ancient Think can do about 10 kW, so I'd be surprised if they can't do 25 kW. In that case you would get half the charging speed at a much lower cost, and be able to charge with three phase power from standard outlets at lower amperage wherever that is available. If regen rate is too low, then the right solution would be to beef up the PEM instead of the charger and get a quicker car at the same time.

    While J1772 is useful in countries where high power single phase is widespread, the only reason I can see for the apparent success of the CHAdeMO protocol is the short time to market.

    By the way, quite a few countries distribute 200-ish volt three phase power. These include USA, Japan, Spain, Norway and several South American countries. So manufacturers: Support for 200 to 240 V three phase power is also needed.
     
  12. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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  13. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    yeh, and only available during 'business hours' and reputedly to customers of the dealership...
     
  14. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    I completely agree.... one of the things that is constantly forgotten is that CHAdeMO chargers are often deployed as single units because of their costs... this produces a single point of failure. We've had drivers in the UK turn up at sites to find broken chargers and then been forced to find a local hotel who will allow them to charge overnight (the UK dealers do not allow overnight charging at the 13A Charging Stations on their sites).
     
  15. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    Ouch.
     
  16. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    My understanding is that 3-phase above 44 kW (if even that much) is not practical within the car. CHAdeMO can be extended to 100 kW, as far as we know, while SAE (DC level 2) can go up to 90 kW. It doesn't look like either CHAdeMO nor SAE DC level 2 is generally considered superior. I could imagine Tesla has a better idea, so I stay open in case they want to surprise us.
     
  17. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #17 eledille, Jul 7, 2011
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2011
    44 kW is a fairly arbitrary limit which happens to correspond to 63 A/400 V. Tesla has mentioned 80 A/480 V for Model S, which is I think is a standard size in the US. The next larger standard European connector size after 63 A/400 V would have been 125 A/400 V, which might be a bit too much to handle in the car - 87 kW continuously would require quite a bit of cooling.

    CHAdeMO can be extended, but it does not support three phase, therefore it is doomed to failure in Europe. The same goes for J1772, but that standard is at least useful in the US and UK. Note that all of the European proposals for plug types support three phase, and the Mennekes variant can support DC charging at 70 A in addition to three phase up to 63 A, plus single phase. Work is underway on a larger plug type that can handle up to 250 A DC in addition to 63 A three phase. The smaller plug would fit into the larger outlet, so it is backwards compatible too.

    Now I start to sound like I'm selling Mennekes plugs again. I don't, I just think it's the best proposal for a plug so far - plugs are just plugs and incompatibilities can be fixed with adapters, the really important thing is three phase support. You can't connect your CHAdeMO or J1772 car to the three phase grid no matter how many adapters you carry.

    Tesla would be future proof if they use their own plug type internally that supports 120 and 240 V single phase, 200 to 500 V three phase and DC up to about 250 A, then expose to the user one end of an adapter from their own hidden, internal plug type to whatever else might be needed. The user sees CHAdeMO, J1772, Mennekes, SCADA etc in the charge port, but this interface can easily be switched to another type.
     
  18. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

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    Of course, there is no fixed limit.

    CHAdeMO in Europe would be in addition to 3-phase, not instead (with two ports like the Leafs CHAdeMO + J1772, one could imagine CHAdeMO + Mennekes), but probably the Mennekes-DC combo port has better chances in Europe. It doesn't currently seem like the US would be interested in Mennekes, though, unless perhaps Tesla goes ahead and uses it (and in-car adapters for an additional port).

    Tesla needs something that can support the full charging speed of the 300 mile battery, and hopefully they choose something that will support even higher charging speeds for future models or battery packs. I'd think there is a chance they will come up with their own DC charging port, and make it available to other carmakers, or even propose it as a standard. Everything else might be handled by user-exchangeable in-car adapters, if the report referring to adapters (which we heard about) is correct.
     
  19. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    CHAdeMO is being rolled out in Norway, in the Ishavsveien-project (sorry, don't have an english link). An extensive network is planned, covering most of the country. In comparison I know of no 3-phase charging points in existance and none that are planned. This is not surprising as the new EVs available here (iMiEV and Leaf) supports CHAdeMO but not 3-phase.

    Sweden is also planning a rollout of CHAdeMO chargers.

    In your link I found a single 3x63A charge spot, the only one that can remotely compete with CHAdeMO (but still CHAdeMO is ~40% more powerful). There are more CHAdeMO chargers in Norway than that already. Even 3x80A is not as powerful and is beyond the spec of the Mennekes plug.

    In comparison, the CHAdeMO standard is specified up to 200A, though none of the existing chargers support more than 125A (might be an issue with the currently available plug).

    Simply put, 3-phase below 63A will be of no use to me on a road trip. It is too weak for daytime charging (too long to wait) and is too "powerful" for night time charging (where 25A single phase is more than enough).
     
  20. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    and CHAdeMO will only be useful on that road trip IF it exists on the route you want to take (and is working when you get there).

    3 phase is ubiquitous and could be exposed to end users at very low cost. Let me give you an example... recently I was in the power room of a mid sized hotel in a 'remote' part of Cornwall and the maintenance manager pointed out cable after cable of 400V 125A 3 Phase feeding different buildings on the site... when I discussed EV charging he laughed saying "I thought you needed high power". The reality is that while I might encourage the hotel to provide multiple 3 Phase EV Charging sockets I have no hope of installing a CHAdeMO station that costs thousands...
     

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