The deal breaker...

[smorgasbord]

Wife has an S5 (coupe) - 4.9s
Current S4 (sedan) - 4.9s

Is that with the 7 speed automatic or 6 speed manual transmission? (probably manual)
Have you ever been able to achieve those times in real life? (EV owners achieve their times every day)
Finally, you're talking EPA combined gas mileage in the 21 mpg range on these cars, right?

QED

Tesla needs to not get distracted by sports models and the like. The key to EV sales is RANGE.

 

[strider]

Wow, crazy fast. Didn't realize sedans that quick were available for less than $100k. To bad I don't like the look of Audi's. They look box-shaped to me.

They're 4-wheel drive - all about getting the power to the ground.

As for handling, w/ the super low center of gravity I expect the S to handle just as well if not better than its Teutonic rivals. But until we can drive one it's all just speculation.

 

[vfx]

...
So they're in the same range somewhat, but it will all depend on delivery. I hope, since it's electric, it will be spectacular. I'd like to see the sport at high 4's though...

At least Tesla has proven they can deliver on their speed and mileage calculations. Better than anyone that has followed them.

 

[AnOutsider]

The Audi A7 is the closest competitor I think, and it's at 5.4. I know the S isn't going to match the get-up-and-go that my Goldwing has, but it'll be much quieter and a heck of a lot better than the Escort station wagon that I've been driving for years.

Yeah, I forgot about the A7. It's definitely the closest in body-type, but in test drives it felt porky and slow, which is kind of why I just ignore its existence

0 to 60 in 5.6 is faster than 90% of the sedans on the market! If you want a sports car, ok, but this is no slouch!! The best part is you can do accelerations like this all day long and not feel guilty about wasting oil.

This is true. Again, numbers are one thing, we'll see how it feels in action. Seeing a number != feeling it and having the Tesla Grin

Is that with the 7 speed automatic or 6 speed manual transmission? (probably manual)
Have you ever been able to achieve those times in real life? (EV owners achieve their times every day)
Finally, you're talking EPA combined gas mileage in the 21 mpg range on these cars, right?

QED

Tesla needs to not get distracted by sports models and the like. The key to EV sales is RANGE.

I track my cars (fun, plus you never know the full capabilities until you push it). So yes, I've gotten better and worse than the claimed (S5 is stick yes, though a DSG would be faster). I agree with you on range, but remember, this thread is about what could be a deal breaker to you. If the car feels like a slouch, that could be a deal breaker to me. If I can be honest, the environment is a good thing, but I like EVs more for the linear performance and tech advances they represent.

They're 4-wheel drive - all about getting the power to the ground.

As for handling, w/ the super low center of gravity I expect the S to handle just as well if not better than its Teutonic rivals. But until we can drive one it's all just speculation.

Agreed. It wasn't until I was typing it out that I remembered the S's skateboard platform and how the handling should be pretty good.

At least Tesla has proven they can deliver on their speed and mileage calculations. Better than anyone that has followed them.

Too true. Even those who have stuck somewhat close to their numbers haven't come close to Tesla (in production)

 

[Mycroft]

Yeah, I forgot about the A7. It's definitely the closest in body-type, but in test drives it felt porky and slow

I think the instant torque of the electric motor will take care of the "porky and slow" feeling. The Model S will easily beat the A7 in storage room, the question will be if it beats it in fit, finish, luxury features, and tech.

 

[AnOutsider]

I think the instant torque of the electric motor will take care of the "porky and slow" feeling. The Model S will easily beat the A7 in storage room, the question will be if it beats it in fit, finish, luxury features, and tech.

Tesla is new, but they did have a run with the Roadster. I am hoping that they learned a lot from that, and their dealings with Toyota -- but let's face it: they're going to be doing a LOT of things that they haven't done before. I hope we don't have fit/finish issues, but I hope even more that if/when we do, Tesla takes care of them properly.

They have a lot riding on this vehicle. I'd imagine they're doing every thing they can to get it right.

 

[Doug_G]

but let's face it: they're going to be doing a LOT of things that they haven't done before.

True enough, but they have hired a lot of top people from other automakers, so presumably they have bought the experience that they don't have.

Putting together their unique EV experience with the Roadster, plus the Detroit (and others) experience they bought, and really keeping their eye on the ball they should be able to pull it off. I remember thinking at the beginning that their schedule sounded very aggressive, but so far they seem to be hitting their milestones so I'm betting that they will pull it off. Elon obviously has the engineering management chops given the amazing things SpaceX has been able to do.

A challenge they are going to have is ramping up to ship all those cars they will be building. Their shipment rate is going to increase by an order of magnitude practically overnight. Their sales organization will have to really ramp up just to handle shipping the preorders to customers, never mind getting new customers. Lots of logistics. Presumably they have everything planned out. It's going to be interesting to watch.

 

[bonnie]

Putting together their unique EV experience with the Roadster ...

Yep. Until someone drives an EV and personally experiences having 100% torque immediately available, it's hard to describe/imagine. A friend this past week asked if I'd take him for a drive ... we're heading down my drive & he comments, 'well, electric is nice, but I'd always want that sweet sound of a Ferrari engine'. I smiled, pulled out on the main road ... and hit it.

He literally screamed. Kept screaming. And has been busily telling everyone since that he's getting an electric. He has modified his opinion regarding engine noise. "Dude! I swear! My LUNGS compressed when she hit the accelerator!!"

 

[ckessel]

That 100% torque right away makes me wonder if people that have technically faster 0-60 times would think the Model S feels faster because, and I'm guessing here, the electric 0-30 time would be phenomenal. I know that's one thing I like on my RX8 is how responsive the engine is. I can only imagine how much cooler the instantaneous electric motor will feel.

 

[AnOutsider]

That 100% torque right away makes me wonder if people that have technically faster 0-60 times would think the Model S feels faster because, and I'm guessing here, the electric 0-30 time would be phenomenal. I know that's one thing I like on my RX8 is how responsive the engine is. I can only imagine how much cooler the instantaneous electric motor will feel.

Or would it be the opposite? I dunno, I sort of feel like if the electric motor is so linear, it might be a slow trip up, vs an ICE which peaks and then tapers off to 60 (in some cases)

 

[dsm363]

I don't know. The fastest ICE car I've ever driven was a 2003 BMW M3 which is 0-60 in 4.8 seconds. I have the stock Roadster and there is no comparison. The instant torque is amazing. I bet that even if the 0-60 time on the Model S is less than a compatible sedan, it may feel faster to the driver.

 

[bonnie]

Or would it be the opposite? I dunno, I sort of feel like if the electric motor is so linear, it might be a slow trip up, vs an ICE which peaks and then tapers off to 60 (in some cases)

Again, you need to drive it. The majority of people on this forum have owned high performance cars for years, myself included. You're not the first one here wanting performance. Honest. And we're all saying the same thing. But you won't understand that until you drive it.

My son was too cool for words, thinking I was a little over the top describing the car's performance. And then I let him take it out with his girlfriend. "Mom, I will NEVER doubt you again." Totally loves the car and is now an advocate. He shares my need for speed, adventure ... here's his latest (he's living in the DR, telecommuting to work while kiteboarding and exploring the rest of the time).

 

[AnOutsider]

Again, you need to drive it. The majority of people on this forum have owned high performance cars for years, myself included. You're not the first one here wanting performance. Honest. And we're all saying the same thing. But you won't understand that until you drive it.

My son was too cool for words, thinking I was a little over the top describing the car's performance. And then I let him take it out with his girlfriend. "Mom, I will NEVER doubt you again." Totally loves the car and is now an advocate. He shares my need for speed, adventure ... here's his latest (he's living in the DR, telecommuting to work while kiteboarding and exploring the rest of the time).

I think you're misreading my posts. In fact, I was one of the first to actually say you wouldn't know until you drove it. I've ridden in a roadster, so I know what the acceleration is like. None of us know what the S is like and it's all just friendly speculation/debate until someone gets to drive a near-final model and can report back.

Going back to my post, I was speculating that 2 cars with the same 0-60 may feel different if one of them is an EV with a linear acceleration. The EV is probably more like the tortoise, not-so-slow, but steady -- while the ICE is more like the hare, hitting spurts of power in peaks.

I guess an easy way to compare would be to take a roadster and an ICE with a similarly rated 0-60 and just butt-dyno them back to back

 

[SByer]

Going back to my post, I was speculating that 2 cars with the same 0-60 may feel different if one of them is an EV with a linear acceleration. The EV is probably more like the tortoise, not-so-slow, but steady -- while the ICE is more like the hare, hitting spurts of power in peaks.

That's backwards - between an ICE and EV w/~ the same 0-60 times, the EV feels a lot faster. Because it jumps off the line, it puts your mind in that state, and it never gives up. The ICE starts slow, pulls hard at some point (but it's not a shock, you're expecting it), then has to pause for a gear change (even with DSG), and the slow(er) pick-up starts again. It also doesn't hurt that you never have to worry punching an EV (and it's all 'instant' - ICE cars have bad latencies on the go pedal input), while with an ICE there's always the distraction of either having to row the gears and fiddle with the clutch, and/or knowing that you are stressing the system significantly (which I did with the 911, any chance I got, but still...).

So, to each his own - but to me, the Roadster is such a step up from the 911, I can't imagine going back.

Disclaimer: the Porsche dealership always gave me an Audi as a gratis rental when in for service - I hated the super dark Atari dashboard interior - EFL doesn't belong anywhere in an instrument cluster, IMO. And the Audi styling makes me cringe. Yeah, the S models had that performance enticement, but man, nothing else.

 

[smorgasbord]

That's backwards - between an ICE and EV w/~ the same 0-60 times, the EV feels a lot faster.

I totally agree the practical torque of the Roadster is breathtaking, and that the continuous single gear pull is amazing. You don't worry about gears or rpms - you just decide where you want to be and you're there before you finish the thought.

However, for the specific 0-60 thing, fancy ICE cars have "Launch Control":

BMW M6 video:
http://youtu.be/fttRPS023uk

Audi R8 video:

http://youtu.be/pSj8PeM9z8w

Launching is fast off the line - really fast. It's a better version of what we used to do back in high school - rev the engine and pop the clutch - but smoother and more refined. But it's just a one-trick pony, and you make all kinds of loud noises from high engine revs to tires screeching. EVs achieve that without any trickery or fuss, and what's better is you have that torque whenever you want it - no downshifting to get the revs up, etc. Cops eating donuts won't even look up to see you break that "exhibition of speed" law (watch, I've probably just jinxed myself now).

The Model S won't have the Roadster's supercar performance, but it will have the single speed drive and high low end torque that we love in the Roadster. You won't win many drag races, but the car is not going to feel slow.

 

[strider]

And to activate launch control you have to push 26 buttons and press the pedals all in a specific order. W/ the Roadster you can be tooling up next to someone and hit it and you're gone. I can take sportbikes on short notice - ICE's have to downshift 3 or 4 times and like SByer said, even w/ a DSG it takes time to shift. And I agree, you're doing a lot of advertising when you drop those gears.

The part that gets me coming from my Corvette is when I'm accelerating and it gets to the point that I'd have to shift in the Vette and the Roadster keeps pulling - that's when I get a little flutter in my stomach because I'm expecting the pause to shift.

 

[AnOutsider]

That's backwards - between an ICE and EV w/~ the same 0-60 times, the EV feels a lot faster. Because it jumps off the line, it puts your mind in that state, and it never gives up. The ICE starts slow, pulls hard at some point (but it's not a shock, you're expecting it), then has to pause for a gear change (even with DSG), and the slow(er) pick-up starts again. It also doesn't hurt that you never have to worry punching an EV (and it's all 'instant' - ICE cars have bad latencies on the go pedal input), while with an ICE there's always the distraction of either having to row the gears and fiddle with the clutch, and/or knowing that you are stressing the system significantly (which I did with the 911, any chance I got, but still...).

So, to each his own - but to me, the Roadster is such a step up from the 911, I can't imagine going back.

Disclaimer: the Porsche dealership always gave me an Audi as a gratis rental when in for service - I hated the super dark Atari dashboard interior - EFL doesn't belong anywhere in an instrument cluster, IMO. And the Audi styling makes me cringe. Yeah, the S models had that performance enticement, but man, nothing else.

No doubt, you're likely right. On the Audi bit though, I'm quite the opposite. I think Porsches all look like mechanical frogs. Audis tend to look boxy and similar, but some models are killer IMO

 

[Doug_G]

I can take sportbikes on short notice

A few weeks ago I blew away a sportbike from a standing start. Didn't really intend to. There's this intersection near my house where, right after the light, the speed limit goes up and the road goes down to a single lane. If I'm first up at the light I always punch it. It's fun and I never have to worry about merging (many people around here are surprisingly incompetent at it).

This time there's a very nice sport bike in the right lane, and the driver seems hot to trot - revving his engine etc. I'm not in for street racing, but I figure I'll just floor it as usual and see what he does. Well apparently my silent launch caught him completely flat-footed. I look back in my rear view mirror and he's only just coming out of the intersection. He must have stalled it!

I think he had a testosterone overload because he came barreling up behind me and passed at what must have been 200 kph. He quickly disappeared into the distance. Lucky for him there weren't any cops about.

 

[Lloyd]

And to activate launch control you have to push 26 buttons and press the pedals all in a specific order. W/ the Roadster you can be tooling up next to someone and hit it and you're gone. I can take sportbikes on short notice - ICE's have to downshift 3 or 4 times and like SByer said, even w/ a DSG it takes time to shift. And I agree, you're doing a lot of advertising when you drop those gears.

3 buttons, one throttle and one shift control for the M6.

 

[andyro]

I definitely want to get those two jump seats in the back so it can seat seven. :

Same here, 3 kids. It is a BIG deal for us - the only reason my wife will let me spend this much on a 'family' car