TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker or making a Paypal contribution here: paypal.me/SupportTMC

The Detroit Bureau Model S article

Discussion in 'Model S' started by dpeilow, Jan 22, 2011.

  1. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    8,572
    Location:
    Winchester, UK
  2. DaveD

    DaveD EVs Kick Gas!

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2007
    Messages:
    549
    Location:
    Redmond, WA
    Judging by your comments, and his "I need to check my facts" form of backing down, I'd say that you schooled him just fine by yourself. :smile:
     
  3. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,266
    I don't grasp auto journalists obsession with really long trips. Very few people drive that hardly ever. You fly long distances. If you really want to drive 500 miles, rent a car that once a year. I can count the number of times I've driven more than 250 miles in a day in the last 10 years one hand.
     
  4. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    Exactly. They can't seem to grasp that EVs (at this point at least) may not work for every person on earth. If you're a sales person who drives 300-400 miles a day then maybe an EV with a 100 mile range and no DC fast charging sites might not be a good solution...etc. They should focus on the probably 80%+ of the population that (especially for a 2 car household with one EV and one ICE car) could use the EV for a daily commuter to and from work.
     
  5. felixtb

    felixtb RsEU502,Sp+14274,XpEUSig4

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Lausanne, CH
    If we were discussing electric cars in general or electric commute or city cars like the Leaf or the coming mini-e, then I would understand your comment. However, since we are discussing Tesla we are really discussing drivers cars. This to me implies that suddenly the range and the possibility of extending the range on a nice weekend or week long road trip does actually become a valid and important topic. And the range factor I think Tesla has gotten a fairly good handle on. What is more surprising is their relatively over conservative way of dealing with the re-charge times. This seems to me to be Tesla's singularly biggest obstacle. For Tesla to shut up the nei sayers of this world, this is where they now have to concentrate their research, together with partners such as panasonic.

    To say that you should rent a car, which are almost never drivers cars, when you want to go on a nice road trip, is like saying I bought this cool weekend house but it's kinda badly conceived so I rent an apartment instead. That just does not make any sense..........Or?

    /fb
     
  6. felixtb

    felixtb RsEU502,Sp+14274,XpEUSig4

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2011
    Messages:
    630
    Location:
    Lausanne, CH
    But the idea should obviously in the end be that we have two EVs in the garage and NO ICEs. Then I would agree that one of these EVs is for comuting and the range has little consequence. but The second one would be for your longer and family oriented outings and weekend trips to grandmas. this is where the driver oriented Tesla comes in and then range and recharge time IS important.

    /fb
     
  7. Jaff

    Jaff Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3,007
    Location:
    Grimsby, Canada
    Nicely done David!...Paul(A)'s arguements are all FUD up...:wink:
     
  8. aronth5

    aronth5 Long Time Follower

    Joined:
    May 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,435
    Location:
    Boston Suburb
    I also don't get the obsession with long trips. I can count on 1 hand the number of times in a year when I drive over 200 miles in one day. And when that happens I would just drive our ICE car (Jetta Sportaswagon- Diesel) which gets over 40mph. The Model S will be fine for me. Its really no different then the family that has a pick up truck and a family sedan. The pick up truck is great but not for a long family trip since it won't hold the whole family. An EV is not right for everybody or every family but for 2 car family it makes sense for millions and millions of people. The problem with many journalists and nay sayers is they focus on the negative.
     
  9. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,266
    #9 ckessel, Jan 22, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2011
    I get your point, but the analogy isn't very good. A weekend house is 100% for this special use. A car isn't a 100% special use for long road trips.

    The focus should be on how you use the car 99.98% of the time, not the .02% of the time you'd need to go on some road trip. At a 250 mile range, it'll do almost any road trip I care about, such as a trip to the coast. A simple standard plug, left in from the time I get there until I leave (typically at least 24-36 hours if I'm there for a weekend) will typically recharge it enough for the trip back.

    It's like complaining that your roadster can't carry a cubic yard of gravel the .02% of the time when you need to go to the landscaping store. It's a total WTF comment. If you that's your criteria, then why did you buy a roadster?
     
  10. Lloyd

    Lloyd Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,885
    Location:
    San Luis Obispo, CA
    For that matter the Roadster can't even carry the shoes my wife travels with! Hmmmmmm............
     
  11. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    8,572
    Location:
    Winchester, UK
    Well, it's clearly going in one ear and out the other because he subsequently popped up on ABG claiming his math was sound.

    There was another reply in my sequence on his site which he has decide not to approve, so here it is:


     
  12. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    He makes it sound as if the "padding" needs to be recharged. Unless it somehow dissipates, it shouldn't matter how large the padding is.
     
  13. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    1,761
    Location:
    Bradford on Avon, UK
    I posted some comments on the blog.. will be interesting to see if they get published

    Kevin Sharpe says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    From personal experience I can confirm that it’s possible to charge my Tesla Roadster in 3.5 hours using a HPC. Therefore, I have no reason to believe that the Model S battery, at roughly twice the capacity, will take more than 8 hours when charged at 75 Amp.

    I would suggest that the only time anyone requires charging in less than 8 hours, is on an extended 300+ mile road trip. This requirement will be easily catered for by using DC fast charge stations that will appear at key locations.

    With regards to your comments that a 240V 75 Amp ‘charger’ “could require a change of service” I agree this is true in some locations. However, 200 Amp and 400 Amp household supplies are not at all uncommon in the US especially in more modern neighbourhoods.
     
  14. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    My comment is waiting moderation. What a strange article. He's obsessed with the 'pad' thinking it's added on top of the battery pack size or something. He's also making up recharging times. If he doesn't approve my post:

    Paul: I don’t understand the ‘pad’ you keep talking about. Yes, the Roadster and likely the Model S will protect the top and bottom 10% (20% total) of the battery pack from charging and being discharged respectively. That figure is included in the Roadster’s 53kWh, not added on top of that. If the 300 mile Model S does have a 100kWh pack, the ‘pad’ would be included in that so a standard charge would have access to the middle 80kWh. If you charge in Range mode in the Roadster, you then have access to the ‘pad’ and the entire 53kWh.
    Why don’t you accept real numbers from actual owners? The Roadster can indeed go from empty to full in 3.5 hours, I’ve seen it. Why would the 300 mile Model S take 14 hours “at best”? Where do you get these numbers? Like the Roadster, the number they quote for range is when the car is charged in Range mode so there is no pad. In standard mode, which is what you use a large majority of the time, it’s about 80% that number.
    Where did you get your figure that the 300 mile Model S would take a couple of hours on a level 3 charger?
    If your breaker box is in your garage, the adding a 240V circuit is a minimal cost given the cost of the Model S, maybe a few hundred dollars at most. I had 2 240V 50A circuits installed in my garage and it didn’t cost that much.
    People pretty much charge up at home where charging a 300 mile pack in 5-10 hours overnight wouldn’t be a problem for most people. If you’re buying a car like this, it doesn’t make any sense to charge on a 110V outlet. If that’s all someone is willing to do, I wouldn’t recommend they get the car then. Until more DC fast chargers come on line, then you’re right, maybe EVs aren’t the best road cars for people who like to drive 600 miles in a day. If that’s you, don’t buy an EV until fast charging stations are available on your route or they have a 600 mile pack in a few years.
     
  15. ckessel

    ckessel Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,266
    #15 ckessel, Jan 23, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2011
    You're not alone, but I'd say you're in a very small minority of drivers. If that's really your usage profile, then I think you made a mistake getting an EV car. I think we're probably at least a decade or two away from EV cars having high powered recharge stations anywhere near as prevalent as current gas stations.

    Edit: moreover, I don't think the financial incentive to build charging stations is really there yet. It's a chicken and egg issue. There are few EVs, so no demand. We don't need charging stations much in a city as EV owners charge up at home, unlike gas which you can't tank up at home so stations had to be built. There has to reach a critical mass of EVs on the road such that the minority of drivers that want to take road trips make opening up high powered charging stations financially viable. That's what I meant by a decade or two away. I think it'll take that long to reach that point.
     
  16. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,141
    Location:
    Germany
    with up to 480V charging, in the worst case, with my 3-phase 400v/32A i can charge with 12kW in 8,5h, with 3-phase in 5h. That is enough for overnight charging.
     
  17. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

    Joined:
    May 23, 2008
    Messages:
    8,572
    Location:
    Winchester, UK
  18. Norbert

    Norbert TSLA will win

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2009
    Messages:
    4,424
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    I think he gets the numbers from extrapolating the Ford Focus numbers (aside from mixing standard/range mode padded/unpadded use, thanks for clearing that up).
     
  19. dsm363

    dsm363 Roadster + Sig Model S

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    Messages:
    18,235
    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV
    He did approve the comments over at http://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2011...nowhere-to-go/

    I think he's stuck on this padding idea. Tesla really should advertise mileage in standard mode or give both standard and range mode numbers. That seems to have a lot of these journalists confused. He keeps taking the 300 mile range and then assuming that's the middle 80% of the battery pack. He then adds on another 20% to the battery pack size since Tesla must be hiding that from the customer somewhere. His math has been corrected multiple times by people like dpeilow who know a lot more about this than I do but he doesn't seem to want to believe the numbers.
     
  20. Kevin Harney

    Kevin Harney Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Messages:
    2,052
    Location:
    Herndon, VA
    For those of you that don't understand the "pad" thing I do. It is wrong but I do. He is saying that the battery will be 85-95 KwH. So the last 10 Kwh is padding. And if you go with the larger size cells it will go to 97Kwh which is 2 more "pad" And he is saying that the 12 Kwh "extra" will take more time to charge.
     

Share This Page