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The Factory Still Does Not Have the Frunk Lid Sorted
- Thread starter lolachampcar
- Start date
Todd,
The whole P85 to P85+ to S85 (coil spring) suspension thing is a huge can of worms. I thought for sure I would have concrete finite conclusions about the three different options but have found the situation is not so simple. For instance, I love the stiffer bushings in the rear as they removed a great deal of the squishiness that bothered me so much with my P85. However, I really dislike the head snap that comes from those thick sway bars. I then pick up my wife's coil spring car and find that it is as stiff as my + in bump but has all the looseness of the non-+ bushings. Some of that stiffness could be related to the newness of the dampers so I will need to get a few hundred more miles on the car to be certain but I'm really starting to scratch my head.
I love the support provided by the coil springs. I've always HATED MB air. Tesla's is much better than the MB system but I did not realize how its transient support was lacking until I drove my wife's S85. I am beginning to think the very best solution may be + lower a-arms, camber adjusting upper links (ball bearing like on my P85+ or using + bushings) and a set of custom Eibach progressive springs. My gut tells me this would provide that instant M5 like response without all the head tossing drama of the + package. it would also allow me to set a more reasonable ride height for the coil spring cars. Combine that with a light weight set of (20"?) rims with good quality tires and I think you would have a killer package.
The problem here is one of divorce. My wife is going to take a dim view of her car up on jack stands out at my hangar while I start ripping suspension bits off and trying things. I can hear it now.... "So you bought that expensive fancy handling package and now you want to experiment with my car?".... and she would be right. Perhaps I'll just order in some stock springs as a reference for some custom wound units along with the a-arms. If I can get it all in one place it will only take a day to swap everything over. I know I should not mess with her car but this will drive me nuts if I do not at least look into it.
My gut also tells me a coil S85 with four thousand in bits could be the absolute best driver's car value. Sure, it will get killed in a straight line by a P85 but otherwise will be the perfect balance of handling, feel and overall cost. Again, this is just my gut but my intuition has been very good to me in the past
why don't you just buy a 4th model S and tinker with that one?
pilotSteve
Active Member
Lola, man you temptress you! Yes this is what I'd love to do with my sig S85!!!!Todd,
(snip)
My gut also tells me a coil S85 with four thousand in bits could be the absolute best driver's car value. Sure, it will get killed in a straight line by a P85 but otherwise will be the perfect balance of handling, feel and overall cost. Again, this is just my gut but my intuition has been very good to me in the past
To be clear, I really do not have a problem with the lifting frunk per se. I was just passing along feedback to the factory (who is obviously looking into the frunk as a whole given the changes in sheet metal thickness) and was curious if anyone else was seeing the things I was. I most certainly do not want to turn any of the cars back over to the SC to address the issue. I've been on the receiving end of those requests and know there really are only two options. Manually brute force twist the lid or replace it. I'm not up for either and it is really not a bid deal for me.
As for the suspension, I really am screwed here. I'm 99% sure there is a real animal locked up in a coil spring'd MS. I am a huge fan of the M5 and am reasonably sure a properly rubbed on coil spring MS can be every bit an M5 and perhaps a little better feeling given the MS' chassis stiffness. To be clear, it will never have the M5's lateral grip unless someone is interested in fender flairs and huge meats but that is really not a concern for me. I'm looking for the day to day feel to be there for me.
Lastly, I've now had several opportunities to drive my wife's and my car on the same day. Sure, my P85 will kill her S85 out of the hole but I really do not spend a lot of time "hole shot'n" my 4600lb daily driver. Apart from the neck snapping launch of the P85 and subsequent 60 foot times, the two cars are similarly fun to drive. This makes mucking with her suspension that much more "necessary".
Oh, and I hate those stepper motors on the tops of Ferrari dampers. The cars have been reasonably reliable for me by I have had to replace several of those assemblies and, the last time I did it, I had to replace the whole damper because they were not selling the top bits any more
As for the suspension, I really am screwed here. I'm 99% sure there is a real animal locked up in a coil spring'd MS. I am a huge fan of the M5 and am reasonably sure a properly rubbed on coil spring MS can be every bit an M5 and perhaps a little better feeling given the MS' chassis stiffness. To be clear, it will never have the M5's lateral grip unless someone is interested in fender flairs and huge meats but that is really not a concern for me. I'm looking for the day to day feel to be there for me.
Lastly, I've now had several opportunities to drive my wife's and my car on the same day. Sure, my P85 will kill her S85 out of the hole but I really do not spend a lot of time "hole shot'n" my 4600lb daily driver. Apart from the neck snapping launch of the P85 and subsequent 60 foot times, the two cars are similarly fun to drive. This makes mucking with her suspension that much more "necessary".
Oh, and I hate those stepper motors on the tops of Ferrari dampers. The cars have been reasonably reliable for me by I have had to replace several of those assemblies and, the last time I did it, I had to replace the whole damper because they were not selling the top bits any more
To be clear, I really do not have a problem with the lifting frunk per se. I was just passing along feedback to the factory (who is obviously looking into the frunk as a whole given the changes in sheet metal thickness) and was curious if anyone else was seeing the things I was. I most certainly do not want to turn any of the cars back over to the SC to address the issue. I've been on the receiving end of those requests and know there really are only two options. Manually brute force twist the lid or replace it. I'm not up for either and it is really not a bid deal for me.
As for the suspension, I really am screwed here. I'm 99% sure there is a real animal locked up in a coil spring'd MS. I am a huge fan of the M5 and am reasonably sure a properly rubbed on coil spring MS can be every bit an M5 and perhaps a little better feeling given the MS' chassis stiffness. To be clear, it will never have the M5's lateral grip unless someone is interested in fender flairs and huge meats but that is really not a concern for me. I'm looking for the day to day feel to be there for me.
Lastly, I've now had several opportunities to drive my wife's and my car on the same day. Sure, my P85 will kill her S85 out of the hole but I really do not spend a lot of time "hole shot'n" my 4600lb daily driver. Apart from the neck snapping launch of the P85 and subsequent 60 foot times, the two cars are similarly fun to drive. This makes mucking with her suspension that much more "necessary".
Oh, and I hate those stepper motors on the tops of Ferrari dampers. The cars have been reasonably reliable for me by I have had to replace several of those assemblies and, the last time I did it, I had to replace the whole damper because they were not selling the top bits any more
When I read your posts now I know what it feels like when I talk software engineering stuff to non-technical folks. What do you do for a living? Do you work on cars or big on racing?
I need to re-read your posts because I don't even understand if your saying you like or dislike the suspension on the P85 vs S85. I thought u were saying the standard suspension is better but I don't get why a $2500 option would be a "downgrade" in performance for the P85?? Why should anyone get the air suspension if you think it's so bad? Or perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding a word of anything you said lol
YBD,
Sorry about that. It's the nerd in me.
As for background, I'm a ME that ended up doing the EE work before becoming responsible for Operations so I've kinda had a foot in many camps. The car stuff comes from a lifetime love affair with two and four wheel things.
WRT MS' suspension I'll try to sum things up with observations-
I believe the coil springs in the standard (non-air) cars actually support the car better. I think they offer a better feel. I say this because my wife's S85 is a very enjoyable car to drive even with the standard flexible rear suspension bushings and 19" all season tires.
I think a standard coil spring car could be made to feel like a M5 (my personal benchmark for a solid performance sedan) with a few relatively inexpensive changes to include-
Change the springs to lower the car and slightly increase the spring rate. This is the tricky part and may require some iteration to get right as you want enough ground clearance to have the car useful while lowering as much as possible for handling.
Change only the lower a-arm to the + part number to remove the flex in the chassis to a-arm bushings (outer one is a ball joint with zero flex). It is just a guess but I think a vast majority of the + package bushing improvement comes from the lower a-arm change as this link carries most of the rear suspension loading.
Change the upper link to reduce negative camber back to the low end of the Tesla specification (-1.2 degrees I think). I would start by using the stock (non +) bushings in this link. If the back still had too much bushing compliance the link could be modified to accept high angle misalignment ball bearings. I am currently using these bearings in my P85+ with stellar results.
Choose a good set of performance tires for the 19" rims or even go as far as to replace the rims with lighter weight ones with performance tires. Some thought would be needed to pick the best rim diameter and width if changing rims.
To directly respond, I think the P85+ is a good package and worth the money. I just think there is a better solution out there for far less money. When I say better I mean (1) responding more like a M5, (2) while not requiring the air suspension which I personally do not care for and (3) does not require the thick sway bars with their associated head snatch.
I may be wrong here as there are a lot of very smart people over at Tesla. The only way to find out is to give it a try.
Sorry about that. It's the nerd in me.
As for background, I'm a ME that ended up doing the EE work before becoming responsible for Operations so I've kinda had a foot in many camps. The car stuff comes from a lifetime love affair with two and four wheel things.
WRT MS' suspension I'll try to sum things up with observations-
I believe the coil springs in the standard (non-air) cars actually support the car better. I think they offer a better feel. I say this because my wife's S85 is a very enjoyable car to drive even with the standard flexible rear suspension bushings and 19" all season tires.
I think a standard coil spring car could be made to feel like a M5 (my personal benchmark for a solid performance sedan) with a few relatively inexpensive changes to include-
Change the springs to lower the car and slightly increase the spring rate. This is the tricky part and may require some iteration to get right as you want enough ground clearance to have the car useful while lowering as much as possible for handling.
Change only the lower a-arm to the + part number to remove the flex in the chassis to a-arm bushings (outer one is a ball joint with zero flex). It is just a guess but I think a vast majority of the + package bushing improvement comes from the lower a-arm change as this link carries most of the rear suspension loading.
Change the upper link to reduce negative camber back to the low end of the Tesla specification (-1.2 degrees I think). I would start by using the stock (non +) bushings in this link. If the back still had too much bushing compliance the link could be modified to accept high angle misalignment ball bearings. I am currently using these bearings in my P85+ with stellar results.
Choose a good set of performance tires for the 19" rims or even go as far as to replace the rims with lighter weight ones with performance tires. Some thought would be needed to pick the best rim diameter and width if changing rims.
To directly respond, I think the P85+ is a good package and worth the money. I just think there is a better solution out there for far less money. When I say better I mean (1) responding more like a M5, (2) while not requiring the air suspension which I personally do not care for and (3) does not require the thick sway bars with their associated head snatch.
I may be wrong here as there are a lot of very smart people over at Tesla. The only way to find out is to give it a try.
Hi folks, back to the original thread topic on frunk hood misalignment [suspension has its own thread(s)...]:
I stand corrected on my assumption that this would be hard to adjust...see below...
I also thought what @lolachampcar thought -- that some brute force was necessary. However in my last SC appointment, the misalignment was fixed to my satisfaction without visit to body shop and obvious brute force. They adjusted hood bumpers and seemed to do something under the nose (although not sure if a spacer only on passenger side I found there was present before). Manager also told me "all" the cars from the factory have the same misalignment as mine, extra gap on passenger side. Given the posts here (e.g. OP), I guess that is "majority" not "all" which is consistent with my inspection of ~40 cars I've looked at around the Bay Area.
So lesson is -- give service a try on your hood misalignment and you might be pleasantly surprised.
I stand corrected on my assumption that this would be hard to adjust...see below...
I also thought what @lolachampcar thought -- that some brute force was necessary. However in my last SC appointment, the misalignment was fixed to my satisfaction without visit to body shop and obvious brute force. They adjusted hood bumpers and seemed to do something under the nose (although not sure if a spacer only on passenger side I found there was present before). Manager also told me "all" the cars from the factory have the same misalignment as mine, extra gap on passenger side. Given the posts here (e.g. OP), I guess that is "majority" not "all" which is consistent with my inspection of ~40 cars I've looked at around the Bay Area.
So lesson is -- give service a try on your hood misalignment and you might be pleasantly surprised.
My misalignment issues came with settling in the sun. I suspect they have some stamping or forming residual stress issues that cause a slight twist to the lid over time and thermal cycling. I specifically remember one car being perfect when I picked it up then lifting after about three days. I'd be willing to bet they are not seeing this (or if they are, they are correcting it) before it leaves the factory.
It is very good news that stressing the lid at the bumpers causes the front to pull straight. I'll give that a try when the Ranger comes to visit in a couple of weeks (AC compressor against the chassis on my wife's car - small and well known issue).
Having been on the building side of high reliability electronics I guess I am a bit more forgiving of these kinds of (small) issues.
It is very good news that stressing the lid at the bumpers causes the front to pull straight. I'll give that a try when the Ranger comes to visit in a couple of weeks (AC compressor against the chassis on my wife's car - small and well known issue).
Having been on the building side of high reliability electronics I guess I am a bit more forgiving of these kinds of (small) issues.
Hi Bill,
I had a Signature delivery in early December with a slight misalignment on the driver's side of the pointly body panel directly adjacent to the frunk lid. I took it in to the Tampa Service Center and they adjusted it.
Larry
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