The Fragility of the Supercharger Network

[rypalmer]

I'd really like to see some trailer mounted gasoline powered superchargers that Tesla could bring in for situations where the chargers go down. I know its against the whole internal combustion thing, but I'd happily use a little bit of gas if it meant not being stranded or stuck on a 110v. They would only need to have a few of these sprinkled around the country and they would be able to get to a down supercharger quite quickly.

Do you realize how poor the optics would be doing this?

IMO, it's more important to have strong SLAs with power utilities, so that they get reconnected with high priority. That, and for the nav to be aware of the operational status of each SC so the car could plan accordingly.

 

[AB4EJ]

In FLorida, most have generators. After 2004 and 2005 hurricanes, which had many stations out for days/weeks, many put in generators. In fact incentives were provided as well as for grocery stores. I live in an area where if one of the main SC locations is down, I'm pretty much screwed for long distant travel unless I can use a lower charging method.

Last winter, there were some reports in this forum about people with Teslas getting marooned during major snowstorms, where they ended up in places with minimal or no charging infrastructure, and had used a lot of range trying to keep the car's cabin warm enough not to freeze. We are early into the adoption of the EV charging rollout (it won't be complete until good, reliable, fast charging stations are as plentiful as gas stations are today), so these things can happen.

In the short term, we as Tesla owners need to consider the forecasted weather situation before setting out on a trip (just like an airplane pilot would). In the case of the hurricane, the storm itself (as well as power outages) were predicted in advance.

In the long term, when EVs start to become more mainstream, disaster planning agencies will need to work with the private sector (which provides the majority of charging) to mitigate the impact to EVs from disasters; I'm thinking grid-scale battery systems, such as provided by Tesla and other companies, could be pressed into service. Of course, you are limited in what you can do in the case of major flooding - I wouldn't feel safe charging my car if I was standing in knee-deep water. So you can't avoid every risk; but we can get this on the issues list for FEMA and other emergency management people, at least for areas with a high population of EVs.

 

[habanero69]

I'd really like to see some trailer mounted gasoline powered superchargers that Tesla could bring in for situations where the chargers go down. I know its against the whole internal combustion thing, but I'd happily use a little bit of gas if it meant not being stranded or stuck on a 110v. They would only need to have a few of these sprinkled around the country and they would be able to get to a down supercharger quite quickly.

A generator used to power a single SC would be pretty large. Most charge @145 kW and at 480V would be around 300 amps. THAT is a pretty big generator and would require a fair amount for a constantly running one; or start on demand? (could use nat gas, propane or diesel I suppose but...). I think more SC locations and possibly some that run from Solar stored would be more likely.

 

[jaguar36]

A generator used to power a single SC would be pretty large. Most charge @145 kW and at 480V would be around 300 amps. THAT is a pretty big generator and would require a fair amount for a constantly running one; or start on demand? (could use nat gas, propane or diesel I suppose but...). I think more SC locations and possibly some that run from Solar stored would be more likely.

Sure, but generators that big are not uncommon, most big rental places have 1000kw generators.

Do you realize how poor the optics would be doing this?

IMO, it's more important to have strong SLAs with power utilities, so that they get reconnected with high priority. That, and for the nav to be aware of the operational status of each SC so the car could plan accordingly.

Like I said it I know they don't like internal combustion, but its much better than the alternative view that the superchargers are unreliable. Its also not without precedent, they've used generators to power Harris Ranch when they had issues there.

Getting reconnected quickly is only half the problem, the other half is when the superchargers go down for some other reason, like Newark did before.

 

[rypalmer]

I think more SC locations and possibly some that run from Solar stored would be more likely.

Also problematic.. solar panels on canopies over Superchargers are really just decorations. An 8-stall Supercharger would require about 675kW. At a conservative 300w per 2 sq m, 4,500 sq metres of south-facing surface area would be required, or slightly less than a regulation NFL football field.

 

[habanero69]

Also problematic.. solar panels on canopies over Superchargers are really just decorations. An 8-stall Supercharger would require about 675kW. At a conservative 300w per 2 sq m, 4,500 sq metres of south-facing surface area would be required, or slightly less than a regulation NFL football field.

Or about seven of these wind turbines. 100kw Wind Turbines | Universities, Commercial, Farms, Municipalities Picture here http://www.polarisamerica.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/50kw-I-Wind-Turbine.jpg

 

[jsmay311]

Here's a 2000kW trailer generator: Magnum MCG2000M2 Generator (2000kW)

I imagine the hard part would be making all of the connections when (presumably) existing SC locations are not designed to be powered by a mobile generator.

As for optics, nothing would be worse than a bunch of Teslas stranded in some parking lot. If anything, I think people would applaud Tesla going above and beyond to ensure operating SC's for their customers, rather than turning up their nose at a tiny bit of fossil fuel usage.

 

[siai47]

1000 KW mobile generators and larger are huge, semi-trailer sized containers and need another truck to provide fuel for any length of time. In addition the transfer switch would be large and great additional expense to install at each supercharger site just for the occasional need. Along with contracting for the generator rental, priority during a power outage and ability to get fuel to the site during an emergency would be a logistical nightmare. There is no need to provide power for the entire supercharger site with a huge generator that would cost a order of magnitude more to rent/own than one that could operate automatically to power part of the site to provide charging to someone who may show up. You need to determine which Supercharger sites are critical--ones that are located where no other possible QC charging is available within the range of the standard Tesla. Each critical Supercharger site could be equipped with a 150 KW natural gas (if available) fueled generator located on site. This would be enough power to run one Supercharger power supply that is shared between two pedestals. Two vehicles at a time could be recharged in the normal manner as A and B pedestals are shared. This would be a far cheaper, better, more reliable solution.

 

[miimura]

Do you realize how poor the optics would be doing this?

IMO, it's more important to have strong SLAs with power utilities, so that they get reconnected with high priority. That, and for the nav to be aware of the operational status of each SC so the car could plan accordingly.

November, 2014 there were utility problems at the Harris Ranch Supercharger site and with the Thanksgiving holiday looming, Tesla did bring in huge diesel generators. See the pictures here: Harris Ranch is not working 11/18/14

 

[jaguar36]

I imagine the hard part would be making all of the connections when (presumably) existing SC locations are not designed to be powered by a mobile generator.

I would imagine they just have another set of superchargers on the same trailer as the generator. They already have a design for a supercharger on a pallet (The 'Temporary' ones at Bethesda and a few other places). Would allow them to not have to worry about touching the supercharger site, and would also allow them to put up a temporary supercharger if access to a supercharger is closed or something.

1000 KW mobile generators and larger are huge, semi-trailer sized containers and need another truck to provide fuel for any length of time.

Exactly, they are trailer mounted which means they are very convenient to move around. Tesla would only need a couple to easily cover the whole country.

 

[gavine]

Also problematic.. solar panels on canopies over Superchargers are really just decorations. An 8-stall Supercharger would require about 675kW. At a conservative 300w per 2 sq m, 4,500 sq metres of south-facing surface area would be required, or slightly less than a regulation NFL football field.

But, that assumes 8 cars charging at the same time constantly. That same canopy, along with battery storage can "bank" solar energy during the day when no one is charging and then use that energy to charge the cars. I have only supercharged once so I don't know how busy they typically are, but I would have to assume that a solar canopy would product close to the total amount that the average supercharger puts-out during the course of the average day.

Your scenario assumes that all 8 cars need to charge directly from solar simultaneously, which is not the case.

During a grid outage, even if the solar plus battery was enough to charge one car at a time, that would be better than nothing.

 

[Twiglett]

hang on though - if power was out, wouldn't all the local gas stations also be unable to pump gas.
Or are we now asking Tesla to fix grid resiliency as well as carbon free transportation?

 

[Pruitt]

But unless it's a very wide-spread outage, you an go a few miles down the road for gas. In most of the country, the next supercharger is a long way off!

 

[Ulmo]

I'd really like to see some trailer mounted gasoline powered superchargers that Tesla could bring in for situations where the chargers go down. I know its against the whole internal combustion thing, but I'd happily use a little bit of gas if it meant not being stranded or stuck on a 110v. They would only need to have a few of these sprinkled around the country and they would be able to get to a down supercharger quite quickly.

Trailer-mounted Power Packs with integrated SuperChargers would be better. There's still the problem of siting them, making certain they have charge that doesn't damage them, and then getting them into location when needed. You'd have to identify the target location that had a need, get a driver, and then have it driven there, and by then, the need may have dissipated. It would be difficult (costly) to make this beneficial.

When this equipment is self-driving, then it would be far more beneficial: station a few autonomous mobile SuperChargers complete with Power Packs around the country, and as soon as a SuperCharger goes down, they launch, arriving within 10 hours of the SuperCharger being down. They could even station those trailers at heavy peak SuperCharger locations as actual in-use systems (such as a way to alleviate new SC construction rushes), to be diverted at first sign of trouble to a downed SuperCharger, and then a higher density of mobile backup units could be affordable, so then within 5 hours could be the guideline for distance planning. Since the Power Packs would discharge with use, other units could charge up and roll over to replace them from further away and prettymuch arrive within time.

 

[182RG]

hang on though - if power was out, wouldn't all the local gas stations also be unable to pump gas.
Or are we now asking Tesla to fix grid resiliency as well as carbon free transportation?

Gas stations frequently have a backup generator system for grid outages. Some states have laws that require installation, and have subsidy programs to fund the infrastructure. See below.

Gas Station Generator Backup Power

 

[BLKTSLA]

I think a simpler and quicker solution to the OP's original problem and everyone in general would be the integration of Waze into the navigation so that community-based reports could guide the route planner and it would know when roads are closed based on the network of drivers and reroute accordingly. If he didnt spend so much energy rerouting he could have saved some much needed time...and anything less than a Supercharger on a long distance trip is painstaking.

 

[Saghost]

Also problematic.. solar panels on canopies over Superchargers are really just decorations. An 8-stall Supercharger would require about 675kW. At a conservative 300w per 2 sq m, 4,500 sq metres of south-facing surface area would be required, or slightly less than a regulation NFL football field.

That's only if it is charging eight cars simultaneously. The canopy only needs to match the average annual usage, assuming either the grid or an attached battery pack handles the peak loads.

Just how much panel area you need to accomplish that is likely hard to calculate, being different from location to location and increasing over time as more Teslas hit the road.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

Also problematic.. solar panels on canopies over Superchargers are really just decorations. An 8-stall Supercharger would require about 675kW. At a conservative 300w per 2 sq m, 4,500 sq metres of south-facing surface area would be required, or slightly less than a regulation NFL football field.

In addition to canopies over the Superchargers, they should start building solar farms. While the solar energy collected wouldn't go directly into the Superchargers, it would go back into the network and offset the electricity that is provided by the Superchargers.

I'm on the waitlist for a local solar farm. In the meantime, all of my electricity is covered by Windsource.

 

[Saghost]

Instead of canopies over the Superchargers, they should start building solar farms. While the solar energy collected wouldn't go directly into the Superchargers, it would go back into the network and offset the electricity that is provided by the Superchargers.

I'm on the waitlist for a local solar farm. In the meantime, all of my electricity is covered by Windsource.

I don't know about instead - the solar canopies serve several functions both physically and in PR. Solar farms in addition will likely make sense eventually, but only after most of the busier locations have canopies (assuming that the sites are suitable, of course.)

 

[MorrisonHiker]

I don't know about instead - the solar canopies serve several functions both physically and in PR. Solar farms in addition will likely make sense eventually, but only after most of the busier locations have canopies (assuming that the sites are suitable, of course.)

I agree. I updated it to "In addition to..."