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The future cost of electric cars vs ICE cars

Discussion in 'News' started by flabby, Feb 12, 2008.

  1. flabby

    flabby Member

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  2. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    It would be great if they actually make it happen.

    So many hurdles though.
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Member

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    #3 Michael, Feb 13, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2008
    I still don't understand why it seems to be acceptable that it makes more sense for an infrastructure for exchanging batteries than it does for one where vehicles are recharged?

    Seems to me that even ignoring the likelihood of people not wanting to give up a new battery to be replaced by an older one, that the mechanics, maintenance, and expense of setting up an exchange infrastructure would seem to be more costly and difficult to implement.
     
  4. TEG

    TEG TMC Moderator

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    Why pack swaps ~could~ be a good idea:

    #1: Possibly quicker than a recharge.
    #2: If they tried to offer 10 minute recharge, the short term grid load could be substantial, requiring very beefy lines from the recharge spot to the grid.
    #3: With pack swap you could "trickle charge" the empty packs at the swap station's leisure (even resorting to charging at night).
    #4: They can test and replace packs that are wearing out. No need to worry about the lifetime of your pack if you are constantly swapping it out.
     
  5. domenick

    domenick Nerd

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    Why quick charge is a "better" idea:

    #1) Possibly quicker than a swap.
    #2) No encounters with "out of order" signs due to breakdown of complicated automation machinery or lack of battery supply.
    #3) A large eesu (electrical energy storage unit) a la Altairnano could not only service many vehicles in a short period of time at high speed, it could also supply some amount of load leveling service to the utility to which it is connected.
    #4) Manufactures can continue to innovate mobile eesu's (different chemistries, ultracapacitors) and their integration in different and surprising ways.
     
  6. Michael

    Michael Member

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    #6 Michael, Feb 14, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2008
    Thanks domenick.

    I'm also thinking that unless the swapping infrastructure is run by a monopoly, like the one being planned for Israel, then it would be a less than desirable business to have to worry about getting reimbursement of battery packs which need repair or refurbishing. In this case it's probably more practical to have the individual be covered by their own specific warrenty and deal with replacements/repairs at their dealership.
     
  7. insndrvr

    insndrvr Member

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    To me the replaceable battery pack sounds more like a way for some company, like an oil company, wanting to insure that people are still paying them money to drive their cars. I don't think in this country that swappable battery packs will ever be the norm just because each EV company is going to have an idea for a battery design or size or placement which they think is best for their car. It's one thing to standardize the charge connection like the fuel filler opening on cars now, it's another thing entirely for every car out there to have the same format "gas tank."

    Also for the general public who has no idea how big these batteries would be (at least for the next 10 years or more), telling them they can just swap them out seems reasonable.

    Save the extra batteries for the charging stations to level off the grid demand, and let the EV companies put whatever battery they want in their cars.
     
  8. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Over time, battery packs may get standardized in a similar fashion to the ICE battery. While there are some differences in size and cold cranking amps, I've used batteries produced for smaller vehicles to start much larger ones. Some level of standardization would encourage competition and improve choices.

    I'd be less inclined to opt for a battery swap unless it is from a reputable source. Not sure if one exists; but a device which tests each individual cell in a pack would go a long way to reassure those swapping their packs are getting a reliable one in return.

    There will come a day where the news is filled with stories about swapping stations using less than efficient packs on unsuspecting customers.
     
  9. Cobos

    Cobos S60 owner since 2013

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    The impression I've gotten from the few PBP articles I've read is that the batteryswap idea is not intended as the main source of power but rather an alternative to the REEV option for longer ranges. Within cities you will use a standard PBP plug from a normal slow-charging outlet I guess. Swipe your PBP card and it starts recharging while you do your work or shopping or whatever.

    If they do a swap solution for smaller packs which is PART of the bigger battery solution for the vehicle you get a bigger range with swaps as well as some choices for the producer for placement of batteries...

    This would be my solutions anyway...

    Cobos
     
  10. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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    "Over time, battery packs may get standardized in a similar fashion to the ICE battery."

    Not so fast. Have you seen the vast arry of Auto batteries at your local Auto Parts store? Different sizes, weights, post positioning and sizes, amp hours, etc, etc.



    Standards are great. That's why there are some many of 'em.
     
  11. mt2

    mt2 Member

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    Indeed.

    When I read your comment, Cobos, it occurred to me that laptop manufactures can't agree on a standard from model to model - and they've been at it for some time. The spare battery I had left over from my IBM T30 didn't fit the T41. But I believe they both use the same 18650 form-factor cell the Roadster uses.

    The reason the battery pack from one laptop doesn't fit another is because the laptop configuration changed, so the batteries need to be arranged differently to fit. The same will be true with EVs. The power needs and configuration of each vehicle will be different - even within the same manufacturer. And if other manufacturers decide to temperature control the pack, like Tesla does, then you have that standard to juggle as well. The different configurations will be endless, and the batteries will be large, so swapabilty does not seem like good long term strategy.

    Unless EEStor saves us all with the miracle super-capacitor.
     
  12. Iz

    Iz EVs are here to stay

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    Different sizes, weights, post positioning and sizes, amp hours, etc, etc.
    Good point vfx. I guess what I was getting at is let's say a vehicle accepts batteries with top +/- posts. Assuming it is an SUV, Minivan, Sedan or Coupe, almost any size battery with top posts can be used to start the vehicle. It may not always work and if it’s not the proper size, will not be suitable over time. Based on what I know about EV batteries so far, it would not be so simple to take a battery out of say, a Volt and use it to start a Roadster in the same manner on can take a battery out of an ICE GM and start a Ford vehicle. In the EV world that type of standardization may never happen.
     
  13. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    I've said it before and I'll say it again, swapping packs is a bad idea and completely unnecessary.
    1. If you really need long distance capability then your second car can be an ICE, or you can rent one. Or you may actually need to set aside 15-30 min. for a recharge.

    2. People may really need to think about changing their driving habits, for many reasons. The fact is that no one really NEEDS to drive 100 miles at once, unless their job is in the delivery sector. We've become so accustomed to the potential for endless travel because of cheap fossil fuels that we think we have to have that ability.

    3. High voltage battery connections need to be TIGHT and SECURE to prevent arcing. Connections that are easily disconnected aren't a good idea in an EV.


    4. All the reasons others have mentioned previously.
     
  14. Solinear

    Solinear New Member

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    Fast charge is the only good solution.

    There are a few things to consider when thinking about this.

    1) Most charging will occur at home (or work), meaning that you never have to stop by the 'gas' (recharge) station.

    2) What this means is that all of those BP, Exxon and Shell stations are going to slowly close down and become obsolete. Where will you recharge? There will probably be one or two "quick charge" stations per town and one every 50 miles or so along interstates.

    3) This won't be a big deal, as long as range starts to push upwards of 300-400 miles, as then it will be "time to eat" anyway, so you can stop for 30 minutes to eat. So you drive up to where you want to eat, plug your car in, swipe your credit card ($2 minimum?), go in to eat, unplug, get your receipt/bill and then drive off with another 300-400 miles (4-6 hours) worth of charge.

    4) Swappable battery packs results in too many questions and not enough answers... is this battery as good as the one I just turned in (is a full charge the same range)? Will something break when I'm moving this half ton battery in and out of my vehicle? Not to mention that they're only going to be used for long-haul transit or long-distance trips, since when I stop at home, I can plug in and have a full charge for the next day as long as I'm not driving 2+ hours a day to and from work. Why build for something when you can just say "Take a 30-45 minute lunch break and recharge", since they'll need it by that time anyway?

    People are forgetting that EVs are going to completely change the dynamic of driving *and* the market - I don't need to stop every few days to get gas. It's hard to push hard to make changes like this, as switching over 90% of the vehicles on the road will completely eliminate any dependence upon foreign oil.

    So build up quick charge systems and forget about swappable half ton batteries. They won't be swapped often enough to make it worthwhile for 99% of the market. Swappable batteries for semi tractors? Good plan, but for your average consumer, just make them take a lunch break.
     
  15. vfx

    vfx Well-Known Member

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